EAProwlerB
New member
What's the deal Epiphone/Gibson know how to make good pickups why do they put crap ones in a guitar as good as this? Or did I just get handed a bad apple?
Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
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Silence Kid
New member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Epiphone guitars... It's unfair to single them out, because they're contract made in the same factories everyone else makes their copies in... But...
Why do they always seem to have the deadest wood, the worst setups, the poorest electronics etc. of anything available in their (low) price point?
Epiphone guitars... It's unfair to single them out, because they're contract made in the same factories everyone else makes their copies in... But...
Why do they always seem to have the deadest wood, the worst setups, the poorest electronics etc. of anything available in their (low) price point?
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
I find Epi's to be hit or miss. I have a Sheraton II that is one of the best playing and sounding guitars I ever owned, it has stock Epi pups in it. Then I had a really cool Wilshire Pro, played great but the pups were really thin sounding and lacked "life". The funny part is the pups are basically identical! Goes to show the guitar itself counts a lot for the sound that comes out of it.
I find Epi's to be hit or miss. I have a Sheraton II that is one of the best playing and sounding guitars I ever owned, it has stock Epi pups in it. Then I had a really cool Wilshire Pro, played great but the pups were really thin sounding and lacked "life". The funny part is the pups are basically identical! Goes to show the guitar itself counts a lot for the sound that comes out of it.
PFDarkside
of the Forum
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
My Epi LP is the reason I'm here...
I've had it literally 20 years now and I came to the original version of the forum to figure out what pickups to put in it.
My Epi LP is the reason I'm here...
I've had it literally 20 years now and I came to the original version of the forum to figure out what pickups to put in it.stratguy23
New member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
I think the sheer volume of Epiphones being made means that they're hit-or-miss. There is a huge difference in quality between the beginner packs and stuff like the Epiphone Les Paul Tribute Plus (perhaps the best LP value out there), the semi hollows/hollowbodies, the various signature guitars (Tony Iommi, Joe Bonamassa, etc.), or the old Elitist MIJ guitars, which are just flat out excellent.
That said, I don't think SGs are Epiphone's forte. Probuckers are Epiphone's better humbuckers, and they aren't in Epiphone's SGs. Low-end Gibson SGs (Faded, SGJ, etc.) can be found used in the $400 to $500 range, and I think those are so much better than, than, say, a $350 Epiphone SG.
The economics of LPs don't work the same way. The higher end Epiphone LPs are competitive with Gibson low end LPs, IMO.
With Epiphone LPs, look for the word "Pro" in the model name, which indicates stock Probuckers. They're not boutique quality, but they're very respectable PAF versions that don't require immediate removal like Epiphone pickups traditionally did.
I think the sheer volume of Epiphones being made means that they're hit-or-miss. There is a huge difference in quality between the beginner packs and stuff like the Epiphone Les Paul Tribute Plus (perhaps the best LP value out there), the semi hollows/hollowbodies, the various signature guitars (Tony Iommi, Joe Bonamassa, etc.), or the old Elitist MIJ guitars, which are just flat out excellent.
That said, I don't think SGs are Epiphone's forte. Probuckers are Epiphone's better humbuckers, and they aren't in Epiphone's SGs. Low-end Gibson SGs (Faded, SGJ, etc.) can be found used in the $400 to $500 range, and I think those are so much better than, than, say, a $350 Epiphone SG.
The economics of LPs don't work the same way. The higher end Epiphone LPs are competitive with Gibson low end LPs, IMO.
With Epiphone LPs, look for the word "Pro" in the model name, which indicates stock Probuckers. They're not boutique quality, but they're very respectable PAF versions that don't require immediate removal like Epiphone pickups traditionally did.
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Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Just assume that any inexpensive guitar you buy should need better pickups, pots, switches,setup, and maybe hardware. Those are the corners that get cut when manufacturing guitars at the $200 - $700 price point.
Once you fix that, you've got a guitar at the $1000 price point.
Just assume that any inexpensive guitar you buy should need better pickups, pots, switches,setup, and maybe hardware. Those are the corners that get cut when manufacturing guitars at the $200 - $700 price point.
Once you fix that, you've got a guitar at the $1000 price point.
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
I've got several Epiphone SG's that I've purchased over the years. Everyone's taste in pickups and the style of music you play is always going to be a factor in whether you think a pickup is "good" or not. My personal experience is you need to get the "Designed by Gibson" pickups for a start. They're at least decent and sound more like a PAF - good for Rock! They're definitely not high output pickups - but they've got a nice mid to high sound, great for chugging as well. For me, I like them and used the stock pickup for years until I put the trusty old SD humbucker (can't even remember what model it is - it's about 30 years old) into it. The older pickups they used to use (not the designed by gibson) were very muddy sounding and not inspiring at all - probably using cheaper ceramic magnets I guess.
As others have said - Gibson know how to make a decent pickup. They're also not expensive to make (about $25-30 in parts - that's retail). And really, there's not much to it other than the amount of turns, wire gauge, pole pieces and whether they're waxed or not. It's not a dark art as manufacturers would like you to believe.
On build quality of guitars - they vary in wood choice depending on whether it's a solid colour or a clear. The first I bought (solid black) looks like poplar or similar. A honey yellow (with flame top) one I've also got is some sort of Mahogany substitute - looks the part but is a cheaper alternative. It's got a really nice acoustic resonance, so nice sustain. Wood doesn't make a lot of difference to the sound - it's more the pickups. I was going to install the P-rails in this guy, but it sounded fine with the stock pickups. I ended up putting the P-Rails in a kit SG I built instead with a laminate top. I find the built quality actually better than standard SG's and the setups are pretty close with not much mucking around to get them up to par. The first one, I've had for over 25 years and it's still going well other than the pots need replacing and general maintenance - but I'm pretty careful with all my guitars.
I've got several Epiphone SG's that I've purchased over the years. Everyone's taste in pickups and the style of music you play is always going to be a factor in whether you think a pickup is "good" or not. My personal experience is you need to get the "Designed by Gibson" pickups for a start. They're at least decent and sound more like a PAF - good for Rock! They're definitely not high output pickups - but they've got a nice mid to high sound, great for chugging as well. For me, I like them and used the stock pickup for years until I put the trusty old SD humbucker (can't even remember what model it is - it's about 30 years old) into it. The older pickups they used to use (not the designed by gibson) were very muddy sounding and not inspiring at all - probably using cheaper ceramic magnets I guess.
As others have said - Gibson know how to make a decent pickup. They're also not expensive to make (about $25-30 in parts - that's retail). And really, there's not much to it other than the amount of turns, wire gauge, pole pieces and whether they're waxed or not. It's not a dark art as manufacturers would like you to believe.
On build quality of guitars - they vary in wood choice depending on whether it's a solid colour or a clear. The first I bought (solid black) looks like poplar or similar. A honey yellow (with flame top) one I've also got is some sort of Mahogany substitute - looks the part but is a cheaper alternative. It's got a really nice acoustic resonance, so nice sustain. Wood doesn't make a lot of difference to the sound - it's more the pickups. I was going to install the P-rails in this guy, but it sounded fine with the stock pickups. I ended up putting the P-Rails in a kit SG I built instead with a laminate top. I find the built quality actually better than standard SG's and the setups are pretty close with not much mucking around to get them up to par. The first one, I've had for over 25 years and it's still going well other than the pots need replacing and general maintenance - but I'm pretty careful with all my guitars.
Stratomaniac
New member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Actually, this is not completely true. They do have their own factory in China. You will find a tour of the factory on YouTube. However, you are 100% correct about the electrics. I cannot count the amount of Epiphones with electrical problems I've repaired for customers over the years. The most common problem is the simplest of fixes. The input jacks get lose and/or drop a wire. It's a pretty easy fix, but it's definitely the most common problem.
As for the pick ups: Well, what can you say? They are crap! Even the 'supposedly' high-end Epiphones have crap pick ups. I have a 3 pick up Epiphone 'Black Beauty'. The body and neck are very high quality and well finished (it weighs a ton), but the pick ups are screatchy and have very poor tone. I'm currently saving my pennies to put some Seymour Duncans in it. I'm gonna rewire the whole thing with 3 split coil pots and a master tone only. My experience with Epiphones is such, the bodies and necks of the higher-end models are quite good (for the money), but be prepared to upgrade the electrics if you want to gig it. If you pay 500 bucks for a better Epiphone and then spend another 200 bucks on decent pick ups pots you will get something very close to original Gibson quality for around a third of the price.
A bit more on Epiphone pick ups. They only have two wires coming out of them, which tells you straight away they are crap. I have a 30 year old Japanese Les Paul from the 'law suit era' that I restored and the pick ups in it are rockers! They are hot and loud! Much better than the screatchy crap in Epiphones.
Actually, this is not completely true. They do have their own factory in China. You will find a tour of the factory on YouTube. However, you are 100% correct about the electrics. I cannot count the amount of Epiphones with electrical problems I've repaired for customers over the years. The most common problem is the simplest of fixes. The input jacks get lose and/or drop a wire. It's a pretty easy fix, but it's definitely the most common problem.
As for the pick ups: Well, what can you say? They are crap! Even the 'supposedly' high-end Epiphones have crap pick ups. I have a 3 pick up Epiphone 'Black Beauty'. The body and neck are very high quality and well finished (it weighs a ton), but the pick ups are screatchy and have very poor tone. I'm currently saving my pennies to put some Seymour Duncans in it. I'm gonna rewire the whole thing with 3 split coil pots and a master tone only. My experience with Epiphones is such, the bodies and necks of the higher-end models are quite good (for the money), but be prepared to upgrade the electrics if you want to gig it. If you pay 500 bucks for a better Epiphone and then spend another 200 bucks on decent pick ups pots you will get something very close to original Gibson quality for around a third of the price.
A bit more on Epiphone pick ups. They only have two wires coming out of them, which tells you straight away they are crap. I have a 30 year old Japanese Les Paul from the 'law suit era' that I restored and the pick ups in it are rockers! They are hot and loud! Much better than the screatchy crap in Epiphones.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Why anyone bothers with Epis when they could get a used PRS SE Singlecut for under $400 is beyond me!
But I expect the pickups to be second rate and need replacing in any import, student level guitar.
And that's who the imports are marketed for: beginners.
That's just a fact of life...like the sun coming up every morning.
Always been that way. Back in the 50's and 60's we had Strats for the pros and Music Masters and Duo-Sonics from Fender for the beginners. And the Music Masters and Duo Sonics had cheap pickups compared to Strats.
Pickups are expensive so on a cost cutting student guitar you're always going to get cheap, second rate pickups.
Second rate meaning not as nice as the USA made Duncans, Dimarzios, etc. that get talked about on this forum.
Why anyone bothers with Epis when they could get a used PRS SE Singlecut for under $400 is beyond me!
But I expect the pickups to be second rate and need replacing in any import, student level guitar.
And that's who the imports are marketed for: beginners.
That's just a fact of life...like the sun coming up every morning.
Always been that way. Back in the 50's and 60's we had Strats for the pros and Music Masters and Duo-Sonics from Fender for the beginners. And the Music Masters and Duo Sonics had cheap pickups compared to Strats.
Pickups are expensive so on a cost cutting student guitar you're always going to get cheap, second rate pickups.
Second rate meaning not as nice as the USA made Duncans, Dimarzios, etc. that get talked about on this forum.
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Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Well, this is not entirely true. If you are referring to Epis previous to several years ago, then I would agree. But recently their guitars have "probucker" pups which are really quite good.
The quality of Epis is very good and well worth the price of admission. I've currently got 5 or 6 Gibsons and a dozen Epis, but there is no question that I would rather spend my money on an Epi and do whatever is necessary to make it a better player (fret job, pups, wiring) than buy a gibson at 4 times the cost and still have to do a fret job and, usually, replace the pups.
All I can say to this is that you are totally wrong. Most Epi pups have 4 wires. And two wires are ONLY an indication that the two coils (of a bucker) have been splinted together, and have nothing to do with the quality of the pup. In fact most early Gibson buckers (which you have praised), had only two wires. I have a 50 year old Epi Sheraton when they made by Gibson in Kalamazoo, that has Gibson pups (probably Burstbuckers) that are amazing pups, but they only have two wires. Most mini-buckers and all P-90s and single coil pups have two wires, which doesn't mean they are crap.
If you are basing the info in your post on your personal experience, that's fine (but it would be nice not to speak as an authority in such absolute terms). And it shows that you have very little experience with the things you are talking about. I personally have been playing for nearly 60 years and have owned a dozen Gibsons and a over dozen Epis. I currently own about 4 dozen guitars including a half dozen Gibsons and a dozen Epis...most of these are within 10 years old, but a few are a bit older. I have a lot of experience with old and new models, and what you have said is just not true (except that older Epis did in fact have crap pups).
Well, this is not entirely true. If you are referring to Epis previous to several years ago, then I would agree. But recently their guitars have "probucker" pups which are really quite good.
The quality of Epis is very good and well worth the price of admission. I've currently got 5 or 6 Gibsons and a dozen Epis, but there is no question that I would rather spend my money on an Epi and do whatever is necessary to make it a better player (fret job, pups, wiring) than buy a gibson at 4 times the cost and still have to do a fret job and, usually, replace the pups.
All I can say to this is that you are totally wrong. Most Epi pups have 4 wires. And two wires are ONLY an indication that the two coils (of a bucker) have been splinted together, and have nothing to do with the quality of the pup. In fact most early Gibson buckers (which you have praised), had only two wires. I have a 50 year old Epi Sheraton when they made by Gibson in Kalamazoo, that has Gibson pups (probably Burstbuckers) that are amazing pups, but they only have two wires. Most mini-buckers and all P-90s and single coil pups have two wires, which doesn't mean they are crap.
If you are basing the info in your post on your personal experience, that's fine (but it would be nice not to speak as an authority in such absolute terms). And it shows that you have very little experience with the things you are talking about. I personally have been playing for nearly 60 years and have owned a dozen Gibsons and a over dozen Epis. I currently own about 4 dozen guitars including a half dozen Gibsons and a dozen Epis...most of these are within 10 years old, but a few are a bit older. I have a lot of experience with old and new models, and what you have said is just not true (except that older Epis did in fact have crap pups).
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Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Concerning the Epi G400...I only have experience with two, one of them is a Custom. They are excellent, but yes, the pups needed to go. I also have an Epi SG that came with Gibson Dirty Fingers pups. I can't say anything bad about that guitar, it could have been double the price and still would have been a great deal compared with a top end Gibson SG!!
Concerning the Epi G400...I only have experience with two, one of them is a Custom. They are excellent, but yes, the pups needed to go. I also have an Epi SG that came with Gibson Dirty Fingers pups. I can't say anything bad about that guitar, it could have been double the price and still would have been a great deal compared with a top end Gibson SG!!
Silence Kid
New member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Fifties/Sixties Duo Sonic pickups are identical to Fifties/Sixties Strat pickups, they just have pole pieces flat with the bobbin's surface to fit the cover. All the other specs fall into the same range. It's not so much that those guitars were lesser quality than a Strat, they had fewer features to make them cheaper. Ex., a Duo neck is the same as an early Jaguar neck, and the Jaguar was Fender's top of the line guitar, but the Duo had a thinner body, fewer switching options and knobs, simpler bridge/no trem or chrome etc. I wish more manufacturers took that approach.
Fifties/Sixties Duo Sonic pickups are identical to Fifties/Sixties Strat pickups, they just have pole pieces flat with the bobbin's surface to fit the cover. All the other specs fall into the same range. It's not so much that those guitars were lesser quality than a Strat, they had fewer features to make them cheaper. Ex., a Duo neck is the same as an early Jaguar neck, and the Jaguar was Fender's top of the line guitar, but the Duo had a thinner body, fewer switching options and knobs, simpler bridge/no trem or chrome etc. I wish more manufacturers took that approach.
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
My lead singer has a Epi 400 and side by side it sounds as good and plays as well as my Gibson SG Special. Blindfolded I don't think you could tell the differece unless you touched the headstock. FWIW I did do a killer setup on the guitar.
My lead singer has a Epi 400 and side by side it sounds as good and plays as well as my Gibson SG Special. Blindfolded I don't think you could tell the differece unless you touched the headstock. FWIW I did do a killer setup on the guitar.
Stratomaniac
New member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
@GuitarDoc - All I can say to this is that you are totally wrong. Most Epi pups have 4 wires.
I'm not bickering with you, but I've repaired over 20 of them and not one of them has had four wire pups. I guess our experiences differ.
@GuitarDoc - All I can say to this is that you are totally wrong. Most Epi pups have 4 wires.
I'm not bickering with you, but I've repaired over 20 of them and not one of them has had four wire pups. I guess our experiences differ.
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
Our experiences DEFINITELY are different.
I think I have owned more guitars than you have repaired. And nearly all of the ones I have owned got full make-overs including new pups. You don't have enough experience to tell me I'm wrong. Especially to tell me that I am "totally wrong". If you like, I will prove it to you, I will send you a bunch of Epi pups that I have removed from my guitars that have four conductor wires. I will admit that there are many Epi pups that only have two conductors, but most of mine have four.
But the biggest problem with your post is that you emphatically assert that if there are only two wires, that proves the pups are crap. You would do well to make sure the mind is engaged before putting the mouth into gear. As I said, there are many really great quality pups that only have 2 conductors.
But in any case, I think you need to be a little careful about what you say and especially about your unfounded accusations of other forum members like myself. You are way off base here. I'm not trying to "bicker" with you either, and if you look at my "likes given" you'll see that I am actually a pretty agreeable person. And I could agree with you now about this 2 wire thing, but then we'd both be wrong.
Our experiences DEFINITELY are different.
I think I have owned more guitars than you have repaired. And nearly all of the ones I have owned got full make-overs including new pups. You don't have enough experience to tell me I'm wrong. Especially to tell me that I am "totally wrong". If you like, I will prove it to you, I will send you a bunch of Epi pups that I have removed from my guitars that have four conductor wires. I will admit that there are many Epi pups that only have two conductors, but most of mine have four.
But the biggest problem with your post is that you emphatically assert that if there are only two wires, that proves the pups are crap. You would do well to make sure the mind is engaged before putting the mouth into gear. As I said, there are many really great quality pups that only have 2 conductors.
But in any case, I think you need to be a little careful about what you say and especially about your unfounded accusations of other forum members like myself. You are way off base here. I'm not trying to "bicker" with you either, and if you look at my "likes given" you'll see that I am actually a pretty agreeable person. And I could agree with you now about this 2 wire thing, but then we'd both be wrong.
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Lewguitar
New member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
My two '07 SE Singlecuts play just as well and sound just as good as my two '95 and '02 PRS Custom 22's.
Of course, I never leave a guitar with the factory set up.
I always take a couple of hours to adjust everything to my liking, adjust the truss rod, lower the nut slots a tad, polish fret ends if need be, level frets if need be and make my guitars as comfortable to play as humanly possible.
That extra couple of hours work cannot be provided by the manufacturer...not and still be able to sell the guitars at the price point they sell at.
The PRS SE's are the best value in a quality student guitar that there is. At least from what I've seen. And with a couple of hours work by a skilled luthier they become totally professional instruments.
Shoot...the Bernie Marsden SE even came with good sounding pickups.
I had to replace the pickups in my two SE's and expected to when I bought them. Replaced them in my CU22's too.
Left to right: Duncan 59's...Duncan Seth Lovers in zebra...Duncan Pearly Gates with covers...old Duncan Seth Lovers in double cream.
My two '07 SE Singlecuts play just as well and sound just as good as my two '95 and '02 PRS Custom 22's.
Of course, I never leave a guitar with the factory set up.
I always take a couple of hours to adjust everything to my liking, adjust the truss rod, lower the nut slots a tad, polish fret ends if need be, level frets if need be and make my guitars as comfortable to play as humanly possible.
That extra couple of hours work cannot be provided by the manufacturer...not and still be able to sell the guitars at the price point they sell at.
The PRS SE's are the best value in a quality student guitar that there is. At least from what I've seen. And with a couple of hours work by a skilled luthier they become totally professional instruments.
Shoot...the Bernie Marsden SE even came with good sounding pickups.
I had to replace the pickups in my two SE's and expected to when I bought them. Replaced them in my CU22's too.
Left to right: Duncan 59's...Duncan Seth Lovers in zebra...Duncan Pearly Gates with covers...old Duncan Seth Lovers in double cream.
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Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
It's a $300 guitar made by a contracted factory somewhere in China with the pickups probably made by the same or another cheap contractor factory. Gibson doesn't technically make those pickups. What they do is come up with an OK-ish design that shouldn't sound too bad and most importantly easy/cheap to make, then send it to the factory to have them make it. As with most low cost factories, there's no guarantee that they wind the pickups exactly to the spec. Keep in mind that the workers are under pressure to produce thousands of those in a mere 8 hour day. They don't have the time to make sure every pickup is made correctly. Slap the magnets on it, put it on the machine, start winding with some high RPM. 30 seconds later, take it out, NEXT PICKUP!
Assuming they even wound the pickups to spec, the design of the pickup itself is meant to be as cheap and dummy proof as possible. Pick the cheapest magnets, wires, and no fancy winding specs like they do at Duncan: just straight up wind it to X number of turns and call it done. As long as it works, good enough.
For a manufacturer to sell a guitar at $300 price point in 2017, they have to look for corners to cut. Hardware and pickups are usually what they skimp on to make sure that the guitar itself is still made to be decently playable. But hey, that's why we're here! If you like how the guitar plays, $150 for a Hot Rod set from Duncan and you're all set! $450 total and you have a nice playing great sounding guitar, still a good deal!
It's a $300 guitar made by a contracted factory somewhere in China with the pickups probably made by the same or another cheap contractor factory. Gibson doesn't technically make those pickups. What they do is come up with an OK-ish design that shouldn't sound too bad and most importantly easy/cheap to make, then send it to the factory to have them make it. As with most low cost factories, there's no guarantee that they wind the pickups exactly to the spec. Keep in mind that the workers are under pressure to produce thousands of those in a mere 8 hour day. They don't have the time to make sure every pickup is made correctly. Slap the magnets on it, put it on the machine, start winding with some high RPM. 30 seconds later, take it out, NEXT PICKUP!
Assuming they even wound the pickups to spec, the design of the pickup itself is meant to be as cheap and dummy proof as possible. Pick the cheapest magnets, wires, and no fancy winding specs like they do at Duncan: just straight up wind it to X number of turns and call it done. As long as it works, good enough.
For a manufacturer to sell a guitar at $300 price point in 2017, they have to look for corners to cut. Hardware and pickups are usually what they skimp on to make sure that the guitar itself is still made to be decently playable. But hey, that's why we're here! If you like how the guitar plays, $150 for a Hot Rod set from Duncan and you're all set! $450 total and you have a nice playing great sounding guitar, still a good deal!
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Re: Played a Epi SG G400 the other night - pickups are horrible
I agree with Lew in saying *the average* PRS SE is overall better bang-for-the-buck than the *the average* Epiphone. However, there are both lemons and gems to both, IMO.
I don't know if it was just me, though, but the stock tuners in both my PRS SE's needed immediate changing. They just wouldn't stay in tune. I think PRS really cheap out on those. Them and the nuts are the weakest links in otherwise solid guitars. JMO.
And back on topic of Epiphone SG's, a friend has a G400 that plays and looks great. It could use a good set of pickups, though.
I agree with Lew in saying *the average* PRS SE is overall better bang-for-the-buck than the *the average* Epiphone. However, there are both lemons and gems to both, IMO.
I don't know if it was just me, though, but the stock tuners in both my PRS SE's needed immediate changing. They just wouldn't stay in tune. I think PRS really cheap out on those. Them and the nuts are the weakest links in otherwise solid guitars. JMO.
And back on topic of Epiphone SG's, a friend has a G400 that plays and looks great. It could use a good set of pickups, though.
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