Pot's and Cap's

[TinPan]

First let me tell what I have going on. I have a Gibson SG with p-rails & triple-shot. My preference in tones is a solid bell tone from my neck Pup and standard highs from the bridge w/o too much "twang" I pretty much have that, I also seem to prefer the wiring for a Les Paul over the SG wiring. On to my question: What are the best "Hands down" over all pots and there values to get the closest to the tones I described. Also the best caps? Ceramic? Tear drop? Values? Are treble bleed system's worth while? The p-rails &TS are giving me good tones & I like them, But feel it could be better. So Im thinking I could use better pots, Emerson's are in there now but they are the cheaper ones, 500K volume & 250K (experimenting) tone and .022uf tear drop caps.

Thoughts??

 

[Mincer]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

There is no 'best', so you may have to experiment to see what you like. I like 500k volume and tone pots, as I think the series setting in the P-Rails is too dark for me. As far as cap material, I can't tell the difference, so use whatever you have.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Emersons are made by CTS to whatever taper and tolerance spec Emerson wants. You can spend a bunch of money on Alessandro pots. Or, a bit less on the Bourns conductive plastic pots (about 15-20 bucks each). They may be smoother and you may or may not prefer the taper, but realistically, tonal differences would be subtle, at best (more likely non-existent, absent bias). If you want it brighter with the tones wide open, you can switch to 500k tone pots. Or, no load tone pots for even brighter. Cap type/brand differences are open to opinion and bias as well. Experiment with some cheap mylars of different values and then drop whatever fancy cap you want in there when you find the value you like. Higher values = more high end cut when the tone pot is rolled off. .022 for humbuckers and .047 for single coils are only common values. These aren't rules. You can experiment with anything in between or above or below those values (maybe .01uf to .068 or even higher if you want). Whether high dollar caps are worth it ... that will all be a matter of opinion. I'm happy with a low voltage (small size) orange drop or other film cap. Treble bleeds are also something that needs to be experimented with. There is no right or wrong. I don't use them. I usually use "50's wiring" which retains some more of the high end when volume is rolled off (at the cost of some volume/tone control interaction).

I'm sure you'll get plenty of opinions and more details. But, there is a lot of info about this stuff in older threads that can be searched. Or, all over the web with a Google search.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Darg pretty much nailed it. CTS or Bournes pots are fine. I think the most important thing is to buy a set where the values have been tested. The last set of pots I bought were CTS that all tested 525. No variation. Pots can have a value variance of between 10%-20%. That can make a difference. . It costs a few more $$ to get a matched quad, but it's worth the extra $5-$10 IMO.

As for caps, can of worms there. I prefer PIO caps, but I'm not paying $50+ for vintage bumble bee's. Current Russian PIO's at $10-$15 a pair is perfect for me. However, Mylar and ceramic are even cheaper and many tests say there is no audible difference between cheap ceramic and PIO's. Use whatever kind you're comfortable with.

Cap values are much more important. For humbucker, I prefer .022uf for the bridge and .015uf for the neck. I want a good amount of brightness when the pots are high and then darken from there. Lots of people use .022uf for both or even .033uf at the bridge. Buy a few and see what you like.

Last. I like 50's wiring for dual humbuckers. All that involves is moving the cap from the hot lug of the volume pot to the center lug. Doing this will help with retaining clarity as you turn the tone pot down. It really makes a big difference for me; more difference than all of the stuff above combined really. Doing all of this is a valuable exercise to me. It should get you where you want to be.

Good luck.

 

[SkyMonkey]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

CTS pots tend to be stiffer to turn than Bournes. Less likely to spin if you catch them with a finger whilst playing.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

CTS pots tend to be stiffer to turn than Bournes. Less likely to spin if you catch them with a finger whilst playing.

Very true. I bought a set of Bournes pots last year. Well made and super smooth and quiet, but damn they spin like a top. I won't buy those specific pots again. Are all Bournes pots like that, or do they make stiffer pots?

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

IMO it's worth getting aftermarket pots with closer tolerances.

As mentioned, 50s wiring makes a difference - you get more clarity when you roll back the volume knobs and to my taste it makes treble bleed unnecessary. However, P-rails in full series mode are pretty thick & dark so if you prefer bright rollback I'd consider keeping the modern wiring for those and putting a treble bleed on each volume. Extra treble in the singlecoil modes could be useful too. The general consensus on the P90 coils in Prails is that they aren't quite as aggressive as classic P90s and some extra bite might help with that.

The difference in tone pot values is subtler and only really evident when the pots are wide open. Tone cap type is a matter of opinion, and cap value is more a matter of taste. Good advice about this above.

Very low cap values (.01mF) can be a good secret weapon in the tone wars. They let you roll off the "harsh" and reveal the mids a little more without darkening the overall tone too much. I find that useful on a bridge pickup, where I never run the tone turned all the way down.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Very true. I bought a set of Bournes pots last year. Well made and super smooth and quiet, but damn they spin like a top. I won't buy those specific pots again. Are all Bournes pots like that, or do they make stiffer pots?

The full size Bourns are very loose. Obviously, some players like that. The 16mm Bourns are stiffer. I have the 16mm Bourns in a Godin. I don't like the full size Bourns for either the taper or the looseness. The Bourns push pulls that I have are a bit stiffer than the full size.

Bourns offers a Pro line of pots for guitar. The blue "82" which are $15-20 bucks. And some black pots which run a couple bucks less. I believe they both have conductive plastic elements. The 82's are basically a reissue of the pots they made back in, I think, the 70's. Mouser has carried them for a while, now they are more widely available. Tolerance is still 20% on the blacks and 10% on the blues. Not very impressive for the price. I haven't tried either one but I'm betting that they are stiffer. Every conductive plastic pot I've had was on the stiffer side but those were all for audio, not guitar. Too rich for my blood. Besides, I really like the Mojo/CTS vintage taper pots.

Bourns also is coming out with pots that have a piggybacked PCB that is an adjustable treble bleed circuit. Pretty cool actually.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

This is the treble bleed info. Bourns is offering pots with this "mod".

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Very true. I bought a set of Bournes pots last year. Well made and super smooth and quiet, but damn they spin like a top. I won't buy those specific pots again. Are all Bournes pots like that, or do they make stiffer pots?

That’s the one thing I dislike about Bourns guitar pots.

They are actually sold at a premium for that very feature as EVH low friction pots and The YJM pots from Duncan.


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[TinPan]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Thank's everyone, all good advice! I will try a few

 

[Jacew]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

The full size Bourns are very loose. Obviously, some players like that. The 16mm Bourns are stiffer. I have the 16mm Bourns in a Godin. I don't like the full size Bourns for either the taper or the looseness. The Bourns push pulls that I have are a bit stiffer than the full size.

Bourns offers a Pro line of pots for guitar. The blue "82" which are $15-20 bucks. And some black pots which run a couple bucks less. I believe they both have conductive plastic elements. The 82's are basically a reissue of the pots they made back in, I think, the 70's. Mouser has carried them for a while, now they are more widely available. Tolerance is still 20% on the blacks and 10% on the blues. Not very impressive for the price. I haven't tried either one but I'm betting that they are stiffer. Every conductive plastic pot I've had was on the stiffer side but those were all for audio, not guitar. Too rich for my blood. Besides, I really like the Mojo/CTS vintage taper pots.

Bourns also is coming out with pots that have a piggybacked PCB that is an adjustable treble bleed circuit. Pretty cool actually.

I had 16mm Bourns DPDT pot: It wasn't much looser than Alphas, and stiffer than Fender CTS. I hated it: The feel of taper and switch were both somehow "off", like it was stuffed with axle grease. It didn't "snap" on or off, you could easily leave it half way if wanted to.

It also required annoyingly sized nut I couldn't find. Needed to saw full size nut in half to get one that fit under the knob.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

I also seem to prefer the wiring for a Les Paul over the SG wiring.
Thoughts??

This doesn’t make sense to me. SGs and Les Pauls are wired the same when stock, so what wiring difference are you referring to?

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

I had 16mm Bourns DPDT pot: It wasn't much looser than Alphas, and stiffer than Fender CTS. I hated it: The feel of taper and switch were both somehow "off", like it was stuffed with axle grease. It didn't "snap" on or off, you could easily leave it half way if wanted to.

It also required annoyingly sized nut I couldn't find. Needed to saw full size nut in half to get one that fit under the knob.

It's nice that CTS makes push pulls again. But that said, you got a bad one. I've had one with bad switch right out of the package. But I have the Bourns push-pulls as tone controls in several guitars and they have been OK. Cant recall any issues with the included hex nuts.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

It's nice that CTS makes push pulls again. But that said, you got a bad one. I've had one with bad switch right out of the package. But I have the Bourns push-pulls as tone controls in several guitars and they have been OK. Cant recall any issues with the included hex nuts.

Mine didn't have a nut with it. Not even washers.

I've also burned two of the three CTS pots I've had.

Alphas however... I've had dozen of those, some DPDT and some regular 16mm. Never gotten bad one and never broken any of them. And they're cheap. I can buy three of those for the price of one "brand pot".

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Mine didn't have a nut with it. Not even washers.

I've also burned two of the three CTS pots I've had.

Alphas however... I've had dozen of those, some DPDT and some regular 16mm. Never gotten bad one and never broken any of them. And they're cheap. I can buy three of those for the price of one "brand pot".

Not sure how you "burned" three CTS pots but if you like the Alpha pots, that's all that matters.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Not sure how you "burned" three CTS pots but if you like the Alpha pots, that's all that matters.

I was using a hefty soldering iron you can fix radiator grills and such... Just brough that up to show the sturdiness of Alphas.

I don't think it matters if I "like" alphas pots. Just thought many would see it useful to know a cheap quality available

 

[blueman335]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

From what I've seen written by experienced people, including some who've done various tests, the value of the pots and caps is what matters, and that type and brand make basically no discernible difference to tone. Few people ever test old and new pots and caps on a multi-meter, and most, if not all, perceived differences would be from the old and new parts falling in different parts of the tolerance ranges. With 500K pots, if you replace a 450K pot with a 550K, you might hear a slight difference (or you might not), and mistakenly attribute it to the brand. Same with the different types of caps.

I'd highly recommend treble bleeds, especially the Kinman mod, which costs $2 in parts and is easy enough for a 12 year old to do.

A great way to add more tones is to wire the neck HB for spin-a-split; far more versatile than coil split.

 

[Bodeanicus]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

Ok, the very basics.

The lower the number value of a pot, the more treble it cuts.

The higher the value of a cap, the more bass is cut, and more treble is put through.

For example, 1meg pots vs 250k and no cap is extremely trebly (is trebly a word?.)

The rule of thumb is 250k pots for single coils, 500k pots for humbuckers. 300k for in between.

Caps are for tweaking your sound from your pots (treble.) 250k pots slightly too dark? Wire a 500k cap to your tone circuit, see what happens.

All of this is dependent on the guitar itself, and your pickups.

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[Darg1911]

Re: Pot's and Cap's

From what I've seen written by experienced people, including some who've done various tests, the value of the pots and caps is what matters, and that type and brand make basically no discernible difference to tone. Few people ever test old and new pots and caps on a multi-meter, and most, if not all, perceived differences would be from the old and new parts falling in different parts of the tolerance ranges. With 500K pots, if you replace a 450K pot with a 550K, you might hear a slight difference (or you might not), and mistakenly attribute it to the brand. Same with the different types of caps.

I'd highly recommend treble bleeds, especially the Kinman mod, which costs $2 in parts and is easy enough for a 12 year old to do.

A great way to add more tones is to wire the neck HB for spin-a-split; far more versatile than coil split.

I dont think pots of the same value "sound" any different. But they do feel different in terms of how loose or stiff they turn and how smooth they are. That, and the taper of the log pots are different and CTS offers some "vintage" taper pots which I really like for volumes.