Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

[WoodyTone]

Didn't want to hijack a recent thread on P-90s. So:

I love P-90s but I also prefer 9-gauge strings, and I've found that in the bridge posn of my Epi Gold Top the P-90s sound too thin with P-90s. Actually, this also happens, though to a lesser degree, with the humbucker in my Les Paul.

blueman, RockStarnick, and anyone else:

1. Do you think a 250K/300K pot with 9s would thicken the bridge tone about like a 500K bridge pot with 10s?

2. Does 250/300K refer to one value of pot or is it either/or?

3. What brand of, uh, pot do you prefer/where do you get them?

4. I've never done this before so will there be a volume differential between the bridge and 250/300 and neck at 500? I assume not, but wanted to ask.

Thanks for your insight.

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

not sure about the effect of string guage, though a lower value pot will definitely thicken up your pickups. you can get good pots over at http://www.wymoreguitars.com; they stock CTS standard pots and Alpha push pull pots.

 

[BPSUL]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Didn't want to hijack a recent thread on P-90s. So:

I love P-90s but I also prefer 9-gauge strings, and I've found that in the bridge posn of my Epi Gold Top the P-90s sound too thin with P-90s. Actually, this also happens, though to a lesser degree, with the humbucker in my Les Paul.

blueman, RockStarnick, and anyone else:

1. Do you think a 250K/300K pot with 9s would thicken the bridge tone about like a 500K bridge pot with 10s?

2. Does 250/300K refer to one value of pot or is it either/or?

3. What brand of, uh, pot do you prefer/where do you get them?

4. I've never done this before so will there be a volume differential between the bridge and 250/300 and neck at 500? I assume not, but wanted to ask.

Thanks for your insight.

Im not blueman or nick, and Im not as good as those guys but I'll give it a shot until they can chime in...

1. a lower value pot such as a 250 or 300k will cut more of the highs. It wont boost or thicken anything - it will simply cut a little of the high end. The result might be a less bright sound - so as far as EQ it may mimic a 500k pot with 10's but the output would be less all other things being equal. In my opinion the comparison is really a stretch so I would say "no".


2. Does 250/300K refer to one value of pot or is it either/or?
That is referring to two differnt pots. Either a 250k pot or a 300k pot. Its a generalization. 250k are normal on strats. Many gibson les pauls came with "500k" pots that when measured were in reality 300-350k.


3. What brand of, uh, pot do you prefer/where do you get them?
You certainly want full size pots (not mini pots). As for Brand - everyone will immediately say "CTS" as people are just conditioned to say "CTS" but in reality Alpha pots are high quality as well. I've seen experienced luthiers who prefer alpha pots over CTS but your average joe is just gonna blurt out "CTS" to answer this question. So in my opinion, either CTS or Alpha.
Les Pauls require more expensive long shaft pots - HOWEVER your epiphone does NOT require the long shaft variety (saves you money) so you need regular full sized alpha or cts pots. You can buy pots online from just about anywhere, stew mac, guitar fettish, all parts etc etc. I just bought 8 full sized alpha pots for two epiphone les pauls from GFS and got them for $2.45 each.



4. I've never done this before so will there be a volume differential between the bridge and 250/300 and neck at 500? I assume not, but wanted to ask.

This question is pretty convoluted. The volume is based primarily on the output of the pickups with the pot value coming in second. All other things being equal - for pups to sound the same volume the bridge pickup usually needs to be a little hotter than the neck (for instance a 59b is a little hotter than a 59n)
In your scenario the 250 or 300k pot is going to attentuate the bridge even more. So if the neck was louder than the bridge before - then the difference is going to be even moreso after the pot change. On the other hand if your bridge was previously just a little bit too loud then the pot change might bring them closer to a good match.





But if it were me I would just switch to 10's. It only feels wierd for the first couple hours you play then it becomes second nature.

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Didn't want to hijack a recent thread on P-90s. So:

I love P-90s but I also prefer 9-gauge strings, and I've found that in the bridge posn of my Epi Gold Top the P-90s sound too thin with P-90s. Actually, this also happens, though to a lesser degree, with the humbucker in my Les Paul.

blueman, RockStarnick, and anyone else:

1. Do you think a 250K/300K pot with 9s would thicken the bridge tone about like a 500K bridge pot with 10s?

2. Does 250/300K refer to one value of pot or is it either/or?

3. What brand of, uh, pot do you prefer/where do you get them?

4. I've never done this before so will there be a volume differential between the bridge and 250/300 and neck at 500? I assume not, but wanted to ask.

Thanks for your insight.

I'm by no means "good" :laugh2: but i've changed a million and one pots and pickups to know a thing or two. haha.

First question: Are the pickups in your Epi LP stock? If so, I'll put money on the fact that, true to original Gibson specs, they're not calibrated. I.E., they're the same exact output.

And to my ears, an uncalibrated pickup set always results in either the neck seeming too boomy, and/or the bridge seeming too thin.

Get yourself a digital multimeter. Measure the outputs of the pickups (plug a short cable into your guitar, and touch the black to ground, red to hot... if it reads the same # on both pickups, they're the same output).

I've changed a LOT of pickups in my 15 years of playing, as well as swapping out a ton of pots too. My PERSONAL opinion, is that no amount of pot-swapping, or raising/lowering the height, will thicken that bridge pickup enough to your liking *IF* it's the same output as the neck.

THAT BEING SAID... a potentiometer is a $5 part, and it's definitely worth a shot before you invest in a new set of pickups, or a rewind, etc.

I always use CTS pots. Are they the absolute best? Probably not... I'm sure those $100 pot sets from RS guitarworks are great, but I'm not rich...

The 250 pot really doesn't effect output/volume level to my ears. It just effects the amount of high end that is allowed to pass thru. And while it doesn't boost mids, per se, the lack of highs gives the illusion of more mids/bass. It's all relative. But a lower value definitely takes an edge off. Absolutely.

The potentiometer value has more of an effect when used as the volume control, but the value of the tone pot does make subtle changes as well.

 

[jimijames]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Im not blueman or nick, and Im not as good as those guys but I'll give it a shot until they can chime in...

1. a lower value pot such as a 250 or 300k will cut more of the highs. It wont boost or thicken anything - it will simply cut a little of the high end. The result might be a less bright sound - so as far as EQ it may mimic a 500k pot with 10's but the output would be less all other things being equal. In my opinion the comparison is really a stretch so I would say "no".

+1, if you want to hear what a 250k pot sounds like, roll your volume down to 7 (this assumes that you don't have a treble bypass circuit or any other such stuff). I understand why people like 250k pots - it's a 'set in and forget it' affair, but you can get all the range of a 250k with a 500k.

Also, your technique may be causing what you perceive as thinness or brightness, try plucking with your fingers to get some meat out of it. Or use a thicker pick - you get less treble response from a thick pick.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

I'm a devoted 9 gauge user myself, as I do a lot of bending. No need to change, especially if it messes up your playing style. If needed, you can tweak your guitar to add a bit more body to the tone.

I always use 250K's with bridge P-90's and Phat Cats (and with most bridge HB's too). Look at it this way: you have a bright position next to the bridge, a bright PU (single coil), and 500K pots add treble on top of that. Yes, it's usually going to sound thin & trebly, unless you have a very warm wood. If you're not chicken pickin', you need to add some body & warmth.

Epi stock P-90's sound better then their stock HB's (less opportunity for winding shortcomings to show thru, and a greater influence from the magnets). You won't get as much clarity from them as a Duncan or Gibson P-90, but they're decent.

Besides 250K's on the bridge, I'll put in a warmer magnet or two. Currently I like an A8/A4 pair for the bridge. It adds mids & takes away the worst treble, plus the powerful A8 equalizes the volume with the neck P-90. With this I get a full, ballsy bridge tone. For more treble, I'd use an A5 instead of the A4.

If your neck is fine, no need to change anything there. Once you get the guitar dialed in, P-90's are great in mahogany, especially a LP. You'll enjoy it.

Also, with plastic covers on the soap bars, you can put a folded piece of aluminum foil inside them, with holes for the pole pieces, to add some shielding.

BTW, good responses BPSUL & RockStarNick. Saved me some typing.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

I'll take a contrary view and say nothing thickens the tone like bigger strings. Beefier magnets or winds can help (remember, this is from a guy who winds pickups) but if you like the overall vibe of the P90's you have, such solutions will sound a bit artificial compared to the "organic" effect of thicker strings. Just man up and get used to bending 10's, or even 11's.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

I'll take a contrary view and say nothing thickens the tone like bigger strings. Beefier magnets or winds can help (remember, this is from a guy who winds pickups) but if you like the overall vibe of the P90's you have, such solutions will sound a bit artificial compared to the "organic" effect of thicker strings. Just man up and get used to bending 10's, or even 11's.

Agreed that thicker strings sound fuller, but for some of us this is more than pushing a string a bit once in a while. For those Peter Green/Danny Kirwan bends, with deep sustained vibrato, you really need 9's. Most of the Brits back in the late 1960's that excelled at wild bends used 9's. Maybe if you have short, thick fingers you could this with 10's, otherwise I don't think you can get enough control.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

using different value pots can fatten the tone but it isnt the same as bigger strings which isnt the same as a pup wind etc... there are lots of ways to fatten your sound but they all sound different.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Agreed that thicker strings sound fuller, but for some of us this is more than pushing a string a bit once in a while. For those Peter Green/Danny Kirwan bends, with deep sustained vibrato, you really need 9's. Most of the Brits back in the late 1960's that excelled at wild bends used 9's. Maybe if you have short, thick fingers you could this with 10's, otherwise I don't think you can get enough control.

Not true -- you just need to get thicker callouses. Play til the fingertips are a bit sore, stop for a day, then go at it again. I have relatively small hands and though I'm a fairly beefy guy, it's not like I can bend crowbars in my bare hands. But I can do 2-step bends with 11's and 11.5's, I just had to build up the callouses.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

and hand strength which may take longer than the callouses

 

[blueman335]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

I have relatively small hands and though I'm a fairly beefy guy, it's not like I can bend crowbars in my bare hands. But I can do 2-step bends with 11's and 11.5's, I just had to build up the callouses.

"Small hands" and I bet thick fingers. For us guys with long, thin fingers, it's different. We don't have all that relative mass & bone behind our finger tips. I play a lot, and just can't get the control I need with 10's. It's not callouses, it's precise muscle control. Those deep vibrating bends on the G string that hit you in the gut. Cut me some slack here Zhang. I've been thru this man. Can you do legitimate sustained Peter Green bends frequently throughout a night with 11's? If you can, you're a tougher guy than I am, but you're also a candidate for premature arthritis. Knuckles weren't made for that abuse.

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Well, one thing's for sure... there are many different ways to approach a solution. And the option of swapping magnets/pots is great for people who don't want to up their string guage, OR for people with tendinitis who simply can't...

 

[BPSUL]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

I'll just throw out one more suggestion.


Use 10's and tune down a half step. Many many many many guitar players and recording artists play a half step down. For instance slash - it will make the strings easier to bend. Just a suggestion.

 

[jasona84]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Didn't SRV use 13's?

 

[blueman335]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

I'll just throw out one more suggestion.

Use 10's and tune down a half step. Many many many many guitar players and recording artists play a half step down. For instance slash - it will make the strings easier to bend. Just a suggestion.

That works too. For me, the drawback to that is that you don't learn songs in the right key when you play along with the CD, and on stage when they throw a new song at you, it's tough to follow and remember to adjust everything by one fret. Much easier for me to warm my guitars with the PU's, magnets, & pots I use, since I'm putting those in anyways, why not choose ones that are a little warmer?

 

[jeremy]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Didn't SRV use 13's?

the story that i got from a reliable source was that he got boxes of single strings. he would start out with 11's on the 1st string tuned down a half step, once he had run thru those then he would use 12's then once he had run out of those he would use 13's.

if you play that much you are gonna have strong hands especially since he was such a physical player. tuning down does give strings a slinkier feel but also seems to fatten things up. a set of 10's tuned down a half step will sound much fatter than a set of 9's at std pitch and probably be about as easy to bend but blueman has a very good point about the 1/2 step messing with your head if you are playing with others.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

a set of 10's tuned down a half step will sound much fatter than a set of 9's at std pitch and probably be about as easy to bend but blueman has a very good point about the 1/2 step messing with your head if you are playing with others.

Agreed, nothing can perfectly match a thicker set of strings, but playing with guys on the fly, and being one fret off from them on every chord will make you look like an idiot before the set's over. Sometimes I sit in with bands & go to jams, and I can't be doing all those conversions in my head, especially if they're using open strings. If it's your band & you're practicing songs, yeah, you can have all kinds of weird tunings. But with a new bunch of guys, if a song is in A# and they come to some odd chords and changes, try making sense of that without missing a beat.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

"Small hands" and I bet thick fingers. For us guys with long, thin fingers, it's different. We don't have all that relative mass & bone behind our finger tips. I play a lot, and just can't get the control I need with 10's. It's not callouses, it's precise muscle control. Those deep vibrating bends on the G string that hit you in the gut. Cut me some slack here Zhang. I've been thru this man. Can you do legitimate sustained Peter Green bends frequently throughout a night with 11's? If you can, you're a tougher guy than I am, but you're also a candidate for premature arthritis. Knuckles weren't made for that abuse.

Nope. Very average looking, medium length fingers. The only thing that stopped me from bending big strings was terrible pain in the fingertips, like they were about to get sliced off and fly across the room. When I just set my mind to doing it a lot, the pain went away. (When I stay away from the blues too long, the tips go soft and the pain comes back though.)

Have not had any problems with tendinitis or arthritis in the fingers at all though (a bit in the knees though, especially the left one). You do have to develop some finger strength but not all that much. I may have stronger than average hands but trust me, I'm not Superman by any stretch.

I'm not familiar enough with Peter Green to know the exact bends you're talking about but 2-step bends are not a problem throughout a gig, with proper support from the other fingers of course. The only limitation there is on some guitars where the string frets out before I can make it that far (wish more guitars were made with a compound radius). Well, that and the cringing wussy fear I'm just starting to get over after all these years that the string will break.

 

[WoodyTone]

Re: Pots and string gauge Q -- blueman and others

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I spent a lot of years with 10s, and when I went back to 9s as an experiment I liked them a lot more. I like the slinkier feel and they open up the sound -- almost sounds like more space around the strings or something. With EQ and other stuff they can be made to sound fatter, but I'd rather not mess with EQ too much if I can help it. I've found that the "thinner" effect is not as noticeable with humbuckers, especially at gig volumes, but P-90s -- at least the stock Epi P-90s I have, which actually sound good -- really don't like 9s as much as 10s.

I will try the pots, then mag changes, then opt for mini-hums if the P-90s can't make it with 9s.

P.S. EVH and Gibbons have some of my favorite tones, and they go 9s or lighter, so it can be done!