Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

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ruger9

New member
So, there's this particular tone I've been trying to figure out for awhile now... Jonny Lang, on his newer stuff. It is a very mid-heavy tone, not much bass or treble. Almost sounds like a fuzz, but he doesn't use fuzz. He always has an 808 of some kind on his board, but that's not it. If you've seen him live in the last several years, you've heard him get this tone out of his Deluxe Reverbs, which have Greenbacks in them. But there's something else going on...

He also uses his bridge pickup (Bill Lawrence L500-XL) almost exclusively, on his Custom Shop thinline. His black CS tele originally had Fender WRHBs in it. After several years, he sent it to Fender CS for new pickups: they installed an L500L and L500XL (this has been verified by Becky Lawrence over on TDPRI). At that time, he also had installed a middle position P90. (somewhere along the line, he replaced the P90 with another BL, but in the last year or so, the P90 is back in).

So here's the tone control part... I have never heard of a tone control that functions this way, and Lang is not really a gearhead, so I suspect he might not even know what he's talking about LOL:

Lang:
"when you turn it [tone control] all the way back, it engages this sort of Peter Green-type midrange boost...and gives it kind of that middy honk"
[I thought Green was known for the whole out-of-phase thing, which is the OPPOSITE of a "middy honk"...]


Could this be a Q-filter? The "Peter Green" reference makes sense, but in the clip below is the tone I'M talking about, which seems to be the opposite? ALL mids....

Here is an example of the tone I'm talking about, this is a recorded version because it's easier to hear, but he gets this sound like all the time... [in the next post, can only do 1 video per post, it seems...]



Any ideas on what that tone control might be? I thought maybe a Clapton midboost, but that's never been mentioned in all the years of rig talk from Lang, nor has a battery been mentioned. IDK of any other tone control that does what he describes...
 
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Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

The video links are broken for me, so I can't listen. If it isn't just OOP, then I wonder if it's both a treble AND bass cut? On my Reverend's, playing with both the tone and bass contour can get interesting in tone, though not a pure Q filter. I've got to imagine there's a way to tune the lo- and hi-pass values so that you can be left with the desired mids.

Also, as an aside, I have my Les Paul wired for OOP in the middle - the pure nasal tone is when both volumes are equal, but taking just one of the down does do a Q-sweep-ish effect, but I don't know that you could put that on a single pot.

Final thought, the way he describes the pot, it sounds like a no-load, and he's effectively rolling it to not being in the circuit. But when he mentions mid-boost, it does sound more like the Clapton boost at a fixed volume.

All to say, I don't know, and these are pre-coffee thoughts!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

Shot in the dark...

From this article:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/stop-ignoring-those-knobs
ToneControlGraph.jpg


You can see at minimum, the tone control's resistor is completely out of the circuit and you only have capacitor interacting with the rest of the circuit giving a mid hump resonant peak. By changing the cap value you should be able to tune the value to a frequency you want. I've definitely noticed this effect in my guitars, and I've toyed with the idea of putting a resistor in series with the pot to prevent it and give a more usable (for me) tone control range.

Of course, the Q-Filter probably does it a lot easier and more effectively.
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

I've got a no-load tone pot on my tele... and when in full OFF, it's just mud. so you're saying, that can be tailored somehow so that when it's turned down, it reduces treble AND bass, thereby leaving a mid-hump?
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

I don't know what he has in his guitar (and to be honest, I lack of time to listen attentively) but I've an axe with the same kind of BL's + a Q filter and it doesn't work at all as a mid enhancer: with typical components (1H or 1,5H inductor + 22nF cap), a Q filter rather emulates acoustic tones with scooped mids.

Of course, being a kind of low inductance Varitone, a Q iflter circuit can be tweaked to enhance some mid frequencies... but it's not necessary; a simple low value capacitor on a regular tone pot will enhance the mids once lowered. Bill Lawrence himself recommended a 2,2nF cap for that (= 0.0022µF).

IME, any value between 1,5nF and 10nF will work too (=0.0015µF to 0.01µF, to adjust to taste). Beyond this range, the tone control will start to work more and more like a regular one.

There's several other ways to achieve middy tones but I've started with the simplest way: just try a low value capacitor instead of your typical 0.022µ or 0.047µ and listen.

FWIW...
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

ruger9 said:
I've got a no-load tone pot on my tele... and when in full OFF, it's just mud. so you're saying, that can be tailored somehow so that when it's turned down, it reduces treble AND bass, thereby leaving a mid-hump?
Click to expand...

Don't know if it can be done, but in essence, it would need to roll off the highs and lows to leave the mids behind.

That second track, with the solo, to my ears much of the tonality is coming from whatever fuzz/preamp/OD pedal he's hitting, if that's the case, then it could simply be an OOP setting (as I say, I have it on my Les Paul and often use it to focus up driven tones).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

freefrog, you got me thinking...

I wonder if maybe the CS or Lang's tech, at the time the BL's were installed, also changed the tone cap to Bill's recc of .0022?

Check this out... at the beginning, his tone is very "plunky"... he's on the bridge pickup, but it also looks like his coil spilt is pulled out, and his volume is down as well. At first I thought this sounded like the Q-filter being used, but then...

in the middle, where he and his guitarist "battle", Lang's tone goes from that plunky sound to the heavy mids sound- it almost sounds like a HORN. No idea if his drive pedal is on or not, but if it is, it was on the entire time, because he doesn't leave and go over to his pedalboard... anyway, starting at 4:20 you can hear his tone change from the plunky thing to the horn thing.... very middy... is this the kind of thing that might be expected with BL's recc'ed .0022 tone cap?

AND THEN, when the band kicks back in, it looks like he rolls both vol and tone full up, and then his tone sounds like a tele going thru a DR (in other words, "normal" LOL)


with time stamp to 4:20
https://youtu.be/wOFPMbElnsM?t=260

regular link (from the beginning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOFPMbElnsM
 
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Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

VinceT said:
Don't know if it can be done, but in essence, it would need to roll off the highs and lows to leave the mids behind.

That second track, with the solo, to my ears much of the tonality is coming from whatever fuzz/preamp/OD pedal he's hitting, if that's the case, then it could simply be an OOP setting (as I say, I have it on my Les Paul and often use it to focus up driven tones).
Click to expand...

Well, in the last video I just posted, you can hear him going from a clean plunky tone (guitar volume turned down, maybe coil split too, IDK)... to that middy almost horn-like sound, and he's nowhere near his board. The tonal change is coming from the guitar. FWIW, Lang uses an 808 (I've seen him with Rt66 as well as Rt808 pedals), but no fuzz (except on the Hendrix tour he uses an octave fuzz)
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

I'm a huge Lang fan, I've seen every interview and gear talk. The ONLY video that mentions anything about the "tone control midrange boost" is the video I posted above. It's not mentioned anywhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if Jonny's tech DOESN'T EVEN know the value of his tone cap, or if he's got a Q-filter in there LOL.

The more I think about what freefrog said, and re-watch some videos, It seems to me highly likely that Lang's tele has a lower value tone cap, like BL recommends. Between "normal" tele tones (well, normal with BL pickups), and the coil-spilt, and a USEABLE tone control (standard tone caps yield the tone control only partially useable; I use mine, but never more than 1/2 way down. All the way down sounds like a blanket over the amp that is being played in the cellar. Next door. lol)

That setup would give many useable tones. I might experiment on my 72 Thinline RI (which has real WRHBs in it, not the Fender-Gibson-lookalike humbuckers) with the tone cap, and see what happens. I'll have to solder leads on and leave them hanging out under the pickguard tho- because otherwise you have to remove the strings to change the cap. AND... if I find it a successful mod, I'll do it to all 3 teles...
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

Can anyone point me to where BL has said he recommends at .0022uf tone cap? I can't find that info anywhere, and the Wilde site says .022uf (standard)
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

In the rig rundown video that Vince posted, Lang's tech mentions the push pull on his Tele activating a boost. That's vague as hell (and the guy comes off as one of the most clueless techs I've seen in one of those type of videos) but he does mention it.
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

Darg1911 said:
In the rig rundown video that Vince posted, Lang's tech mentions the push pull on his Tele activating a boost. That's vague as hell (and the guy comes off as one of the most clueless techs I've seen in one of those type of videos) but he does mention it.
Click to expand...

Correct. I think that tech changes strings and sets the amp knobs. That's IT. Even Lang knew the push-pull was a coil-spilt, for Godssakes.....

First it's a "pull-out coil tap", then it's a "pull-out coil tap with boost".... WTH?

"I can't tell you what's been done to the amps because it's a sceret, but if you get the book by Astin - Astin Pitt- ASPEN PITTMAN- you'll be able to figure it out" ROFL
 
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Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

ruger9 said:
Can anyone point me to where BL has said he recommends at .0022uf tone cap? I can't find that info anywhere, and the Wilde site says .022uf (standard)
Click to expand...

Sorry to reply so late, I was and am still very busy.

I don't know if what Bill said about the low value cap can be found online: I don't clearly remember where I've read or heard that (it could have been told in a discussion several decades ago: I'll search in my archives if time permits).

All I can say is that a low value capacitor DOES enhance the mids of any passive pickup by shifting its resonant frequency in the high mids. The higher is the capacitance of the component, the lower in the spectrum will be this resonant peak (regular tone caps shift down this peak in the low mids, hence the mud).


Now, I don't know if such a low value cap is actually what you need. I just share with you a possible answer to your quest. Good luck in your experiments! :-)
 
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Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

ruger9 said:
Correct. I think that tech changes strings and sets the amp knobs. That's IT. Even Lang knew the push-pull was a coil-spilt, for Godssakes.....

First it's a "pull-out coil tap", then it's a "pull-out coil tap with boost".... WTH?

"I can't tell you what's been done to the amps because it's a sceret, but if you get the book by Astin - Astin Pitt- ASPEN PITTMAN- you'll be able to figure it out" ROFL
Click to expand...

All true. But, my point was that maybe the push pull does activate an active boost circuit. Of course, no way to tell because the tech babbles and drools but it seems plausible since what you explain from the videos (I didn't watch them) was that Lang is getting that mid boost/tone change on the fly, away from his pedal board. Again, I know that's too vague to identify what it is.
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

Darg1911 said:
All true. But, my point was that maybe the push pull does activate an active boost circuit. Of course, no way to tell because the tech babbles and drools but it seems plausible since what you explain from the videos (I didn't watch them) was that Lang is getting that mid boost/tone change on the fly, away from his pedal board. Again, I know that's too vague to identify what it is.
Click to expand...


Well, that's not how Jonny himself describes it. HE says, (in the 1st video in the OP) "push-pull splits the coils", and "tone control all the way back is a midrange boost". I think the tech is confused, as it's the same KNOB that does both things.
 
Re: Q-filter? (Jonny Lang content)

ruger9 said:
Well, that's not how Jonny himself describes it. HE says, (in the 1st video in the OP) "push-pull splits the coils", and "tone control all the way back is a midrange boost". I think the tech is confused, as it's the same KNOB that does both things.
Click to expand...

Didn't watch that video but I'd go with Lang over his tech. But this one says the push pull is a series/parallel switch. http://tonereport.com/blogs/rig-report/rig-report-jonny-lang

Good luck ...
 
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