Question about magnets effect tone

[frankfalbo]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

...what I'd really like to know is how a "slimmer" relationship between the magnets and the strings would result in less low end. I can't think of any physical explanation as to why that would be the case.

Wider string window = more obfuscation of treble and high harmonics. Two sources or one wider source will, in effect, bring in more lower frequency information in relation to high frequencies.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Wider string window = more obfuscation of treble and high harmonics. Two sources or one wider source will, in effect, bring in more lower frequency information in relation to high frequencies.

But where does the difference in proportionality come from?

Are you saying that as you increase the width, the harmonics progressively cancel themselves out, while the lower frequencies with longer string movements do not, and therefore increase proportionately?

 

[Nostalgic Distortion]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

@

This sounds like the typical 'I don't want to have to go out of my way to make a set so I'll try and bluff my way out of it' type response. Its usually done when there's a lot of stock already made, or materials on hand and there would have to be something else done to make the set.

I would try Zhangbucker myself. David winds a great Tele pickup, and is usually happy to talk though the tonal options. Its best to have an idea on final tone balance or outcome, and he can choose the wind and mag to suit unless you want something absolutely specific.

Yep....

 

[Demanic]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

But where does the difference in proportionality come from?

Are you saying that as you increase the width, the harmonics progressively cancel themselves out, while the lower frequencies with longer string movements do not, and therefore increase proportionately?

I think you just nailed it.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Wider string window = more obfuscation of treble and high harmonics. Two sources or one wider source will, in effect, bring in more lower frequency information in relation to high frequencies.

Sorry, Frank, I must disagree here too. When I put standard 1/2" magnets (I usually use 3/8") in a neck P90 and pop it back in the guitar and adjust it exactly the same as it was in the guitar before with the 3/8" mags, the treble may drop a little but the bass response goes up dramatically, like an active boost. If it merely reduced the treble, it would just sound like rolling the tone back -- but it's more like cranking the bass knob way up on the amp.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

I don't think we're in disagreement. There is a lot more going on in the P90 format than just string window. The productive string window of a P90 is already tall, as it relates to the pickup's polarity. Then the return path; the flux lines in the opposite direction, are part of the sound. I can't run a finite element model for you, but narrowing the base magnets of a P90 would actually widen the positive (productive) flux at the string, by pinching the return path inward. If I could draw it on the keyboard, it's as though a normal P90 is more A-frame like this /\ and your narrower magnets make it more like this [] This is because of the two magnets opposing, and therefore focusing more magnetism upward through the poles.

What I'm talking about with string window, would be like simply taking a Firebird pickup and spreading the coils farther apart from one another, or wiring a bridge and middle strat pickup together in series...that sort of stuff.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Well while we're on the subject, how does using a smaller length magnet affect the tone?

I'm thinking of the bright, clear tone of a Duncan Jazz or Gibson T-Top.

Is it as loud as it would be with a longer magnet? Or does the volume drop when you go with a shorter magnet.

Real T-Tops always struck me as being less full and ballsy than a real PAF, and a neck T-Top less muddy but livelier and brighter than a neck PAF.

But I have limited experience with modern pickups. Only the old originals.

Also: is the alnico 2 magnet in a APH-1 shorter than the A2 magnet in a Seth Lover or Pearly Gates?

Never took one apart to see.

But I know the Jazz, which uses a short A5 magnet, is the same pickup as the APH-1 only with an alnico 2 magnet.

Many thanks!

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

But I know the Jazz, which uses a short A5 magnet!

I've never seen a Jazz p'up with a short magnet, and I've modded several dozens of them.

 

[loversmoon]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

ive created a monster lol.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

I've never seen a Jazz p'up with a short magnet, and I've modded several dozens of them.

Really?

I owned a set, just to see what it sounded like.

Had them in a Hamer.

But I never took one apart.

Thanks!

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

I don't think we're in disagreement. There is a lot more going on in the P90 format than just string window. The productive string window of a P90 is already tall, as it relates to the pickup's polarity. Then the return path; the flux lines in the opposite direction, are part of the sound. I can't run a finite element model for you, but narrowing the base magnets of a P90 would actually widen the positive (productive) flux at the string, by pinching the return path inward. If I could draw it on the keyboard, it's as though a normal P90 is more A-frame like this /\ and your narrower magnets make it more like this [] This is because of the two magnets opposing, and therefore focusing more magnetism upward through the poles.

What I'm talking about with string window, would be like simply taking a Firebird pickup and spreading the coils farther apart from one another, or wiring a bridge and middle strat pickup together in series...that sort of stuff.

So this Firebird arrangement creates a narrower tone by widening the magnetic field?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

No I'm only talking about if someone wanted to learn what widening or narrowing the string window sounds like in isolation, the best (although not perfect) way to hear that is to take two coils with magnets loaded in them, like a Firebird, and listen with them pressed up against one another, then 1/8" apart, 1/4" apart, and so on. You'll be hearing the same exact coils, but listening to a wider string window. Your narrowing of the P90 magnets, in my opinion (without running you a finite element model) is broadening the useful flux at the top of the pickup. The wider P90 magnets, while existentially "widening" the presence of flux, are also scattering out the reverse polarity flux lines which do the combing and cancelling. If you want to experiment even more, put flux plates on the outside of the P-90. This will pull the flux to the outside, widening the string window, but also lowering the height of the field and stiffening up the return path. All fun stuff!

 

[marcello252]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Take it a step further and make a rod-magnet P90. An even narrower magnetic field and the sound is much thinner and brighter still.

It seems you are describing a Jazzmaster pickup

 

[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

No I'm only talking about if someone wanted to learn what widening or narrowing the string window sounds like in isolation, the best (although not perfect) way to hear that is to take two coils with magnets loaded in them, like a Firebird, and listen with them pressed up against one another, then 1/8" apart, 1/4" apart, and so on. You'll be hearing the same exact coils, but listening to a wider string window. Your narrowing of the P90 magnets, in my opinion (without running you a finite element model) is broadening the useful flux at the top of the pickup. The wider P90 magnets, while existentially "widening" the presence of flux, are also scattering out the reverse polarity flux lines which do the combing and cancelling. If you want to experiment even more, put flux plates on the outside of the P-90. This will pull the flux to the outside, widening the string window, but also lowering the height of the field and stiffening up the return path. All fun stuff!

Cool, would you be able to post a pic of a P90 with flux plates added and a parts list or a link to where it shows how to do this.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Do you mind sharing the name of the winder?

I went with Revel pickups and he built me an aweosme set of Broadcasters with UOA5s in the neck and Degaussed A5s in the bridge. Have a love/hate with the neck pickup but the bridge is pure gold.

EDIT: Not trying to steer you away from SD, I tried ordering a Custom Shop pickup from them and it was the worst ordering experience I've ever had so I just decided to go elsewhere. But many others have had great sucess with SD Custom Shop orders.