Question on mids and magnets.

[SJ318]

Hello,
I hear people complain a lot about too much highs and lows in pickups. What would EVER be the ADVANTAGE in having a so-called "scooped" pickup. Does that not mean exactly "loss" of mids? Is there a Magnet that I can get that will still sound crisp with my Seth Lover and still have "mids"? A2's too soft or dark for me. A4's have a lot of conflicting info out there.
Don't mean to sound stupid but don't care if I do anymore. Why have scooped mids?
Thanks to all, hoping for a response on this one.
Steve

 

[synzzzer]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Well, to go way back when ... In the 60's when Marshalls were first getting used by major artists, a lot of players used Gibsons through Marshalls to get that classic rock n' roll sound. PAF pickups are a touch mid scooped, and the Celestion speakers are a touch mid heavy. When you combine them they balance out. That's the original thinking.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Thanks,
That part makes sense. But these days, say through a Fender Blues Deluxe, or better yet, a Fender Princeton, just to get a good range of amps in the equation, would there be a reason why a pickup would be scooped on purpose?
sb

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Whenever you want a guitar to be in the very back of the mix, and not one of the main instruments, scooping the mids will do the trick. In rock and metal, I find scooped mids to be a terrible idea, and it rarely ever results in a good, clear, balanced mix in my opinion. A guitar's frequency range lies mostly in the midrange frequencies, and scooping the mids will take out the body of the guitar.

Now for other instruments such as bass, mid scooping can work, but not always. John Paul Jones really dominated the low lows, with some highs for clarity, but left most of the midrange for Page and Plant's voice. But scooping too much mids on bass will make it so you only feel vibrations without actually hearing the bass guitar through the mix. I think relaxing the upper mids and treble on a bass while having strong low mids and even stronger lows is the way to go when mixing with a mid-heavy guitar sound.

One last thing, scooped mids on guitar almost always results in the guitar competing for the low frequencies from the bass guitar and bass drum and competing for the highs with the drum cymbals. Every instrument should have their frequency pocket/space to fit into, avoiding competition as much as possible, so it all complements each other resulting in a clearer sound. Competing instruments just sounds like a complete mess.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Turn up the knob called treble or presence- that will add crispness.


No

Seriously

Only metal pickups would ever be wound with a scooped tone in mind. And that is lightyears away from what we're talking here. A5 and ceramic both have lots of mids, just more highs as well. And A5 wasn't put in pickups back in the day because they wanted a scooped sound, simply because it was a cheap abundantly available magnet. I don't think either of the big makers cared one way or another about the pickups in their guitars until the 80's. That was when the push for vintage started and the analysis began.

 

[koshikas]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

I cannot vouch for all types Alnico type magnets, but I can for the types I have played so far (which is Alnico II/III/V). If you consider Alnico IIs to be too soft and dark, and you need crispiness and if Alnico V (mid-scooped in my opinion, unless you have lots of winding in the bobbins or some other wizardry) is not the thing for you, I will recommend Alnico IIIs. To my ears they clearly have their mid presence, and they also have sweet high-end more than u would find on Alnico II.

They are also the weakest of Alnico magnet types, so lot less string pull meaning u can really raise ur pickups if that is ur thing.

 

[CTN]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

I cannot think of any reason to ever have scooped sounding pickups. Mids are where the bulk of a guitar's natural sound is. Take that out, and you're taking out most of the character of your instrument, which is stupid IMO.

If you need to situate your guitar in a mix in a particular way, do it with your amp or with an EQ pedal or something, don't cut it off right at the source. If you ever need mids back again, like for example if you are playing a solo, you are outta luck because it doesn't exist where it matters most - at the source. You can't add back what isn't there in the first place.

If you have a pickup with a balanced EQ, and all the frequencies are there in spades, then you can always take out what you don't want, and leave what you do want.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Remember, the final tone and frequency balance is a result of every component working together. If you are using a mid heavy amp, mid heavy speakers and mid heavy OD, a mid heavy pickup may just be too overbearing. Additionally, when you think of clean guitar parts that are a dominant part of the final mix (think a sparse jazz arrangement with only bass and drum kit) then the wide spread of bass to treble fills out the tone. Once you add in a million other instruments you may need it to sit in that narrow frequency space.

I can relate it back to acoustic guitars. Take a Martin Rosewood Dreadnought and a Gibson Mahogany Sloped Shoulder. Two completely different tones, the Martin sounds "huge" with an expansive and booming bass and sparkling treble. The Gibson has a meaty and complex midrange with a roll off in the bass and treble. If you EQ the Martin to sit in a dense mix you end up with just that sparkling treble riding over the top of the mix. (the bass needs to be cut to avoid interfering with the other low instruments) The Gibson will just sit there in the mids providing harmonic content but not getting in the way of the extremes. On the other hand if its just a vocal and a single acoustic guitar, that Martin tone and its nice dip in the mids leaves a perfect place for vocals to lead. There are definitely examples of the opposite, but that's a general way of looking at it. I play for myself most of the time and I love the deep bass and crisp treble of the Martin tone, so that's what I went with. If I was playing it in a band, I could see going with the Gibson tone.

Same for electic pickups. A gentle, mid-scooped and low output Strat with subtle bass and acoustic kit can be pretty nice. It really allows the playing dynamics to translate and allows those sparkling treble frequencies to ring.

(Keep in mind that even slightly "mid scooped" guitar pickups are still very heavy on mids. You never get a pickup that actually looks like a "smile" EQ, it's more which frequencies are emphasized and de-emphasized)

 

[SJ318]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Yes, you all have it exactly right. I have a post about the pickup I like best, in the pup forum, and the Seth is my favorite, after MUCH searching, but it was dark in all my guitars, even my strat. So MJ said put a A5 in it and it got so close to what I need ( Mike Bloomfield when cleaned up/Beano Clapton when pushed hard) To younger readers, if you haven't heard M. Bloomfield, find Super Session, side 1, unbelievable sound, 59 LP, Fender deluxe maybe. I use a princeton, a blues deluxe, or a hot rod deluxe for bigger venues. So yes I notice a loss of mids, in all my guitars. LP, SG, 2 strats, 1 nicely modded LP Jr.,all with humbuckers in the bridge. Hope I have not broken any rules by having 2 similar threads going, did not mean to, so I apologize.
Steve B

 

[AlexR]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Its funny, but the seth is actually known as a pretty bright wind. It has a present and honky tone, but there is plenty of treble on tap - like most true PAF tones. PAFs were wound for the amps of the day....fender tweeds for example which were midsy and barky.
I can't imagine how you found it dark, but each of us has his own way these things sound for us.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Yes, I agree,
Could be my attack, I can't use picks much anymore as having tried fingers only, with a generous amout of finger nails re-inforced with super glue and trying it J. Beck style for a few years now, picks feel clumsy.
Also being in front of loud bass, drums, and worse-me, my ears are damaged. High end loss, not alot, but the Doc said it was measurable.
SJB

 

[AlexR]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Fingers tend to mute top end a bit. I play a lot with fingers as I tend to spread my picks about and they get 'misplaced'. I'm very similar to Andy from PGS....except that I'm equally at home without a pick as with.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

If you don't want to go all the way to A5 try A3. A3 is the closest thing to a weaker A5. A4 makes a big different in "musical" overtones and has a different character.

On the other hand, once the thing is open why not try them all?

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

What about UOA5?

 

[SJ318]

Re: Question on mids and magnets.

Hey there,
Yes, I am going to try the UOA5 on my LPJr. Seth bridge humbucker and match that against my SG Seth bridge with an A5. I just need to search the correct way to match polarity when I swap them.
SJ