Real Original PAF magnets?

[kaknight]

I was just wondering what magnets the orginal PAFs in the Gibbys of the 50's and 60's had in them? We have the Seth with AII's, and the rest of the PAF pups that SD sells have A5 (including the 59). Were the originals AII? Do AII mags just sound more like pups that are that old?

Just curious.

 

[RG 2570]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

I was just wondering what magnets the orginal PAFs in the Gibbys of the 50's and 60's had in them? We have the Seth with AII's, and the rest of the PAF pups that SD sells have A5 (including the 59). Were the originals AII? Do AII mags just sound more like pups that are that old?

Just curious.

I read gibson used whatever they had laying around in them old ones
alnico II,III,4 and 5

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

It get's real complicated and the truth is: NO ONE KNOWS!

Every manufacturer of magnets has thier own slightly differant formula for alnico 2.

Today's alnico 2 is not exactly the same as the alnico 2 of the 50's.

Seth Lover's original 1955 patent called for alnico 2 and that's what was used originally.

Then alnico 5 started to be used right along with alnico 2 so that by '59, most pafs seem to use a magnet closer to a5 than a2.

But those old pafs from the 50's and early 60's with what appears to be an a5 magnet do seem to have a warmer, less glassy tone than those made with today's alnico 5.

At least they do to me...

Lew

 

[beandip]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

I've got a p-90 pickup from Gibson form 52, and its A2.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

I've got a p-90 pickup from Gibson form 52, and its A2.

How do you know? Lew

 

[theboatcandream]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

My mom's 55 gibson jaz box (my dad says it's an e135, but I'm not sure I agree since it has f-holes and a few other things) definately has a2 mags just from the sound.

 

[beandip]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

I took them (the mags) to a local mechanics shop. One guy there, Josh, is really big on mags. He tested the strength of 'em, did some math, and came out with A2.

 

[mongrollo]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

I took them (the mags) to a local mechanics shop. One guy there, Josh, is really big on mags. He tested the strength of 'em, did some math, and came out with A2.

Did he consider the strenth loose due the time?

 

[beandip]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

Yeah, he did. Thats what the math part was about. Plus, to my knowlege, Gibson didnt use A5 in '52.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

I'm not sure you can really do that...the expert pickup winders I know tell me you can just make an educated guess as to whether an old magnet is alnico 2, 3, 4 or 5, but you can't know for certain.

Lew

 

[mongrollo]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

The strenth loose may be affected by diferent factors. One it is time but the eviroment should affect too, not in a short range of time but it will in 50 years. I guess the only way to differ the magnet it is to use a quimical test to analyse the molecular composition...

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

It is my understanding that in general the grade of an alnico magnet cannot be identified from the magnetic pull reading. That is a weaker a5 magnet is NOT an a4 magnet. The grades are determined by the composition of the ingredients, and primarily that has to do with the intesity of the magnetic field. Magnetic pull might be misleading, for example the pull of a2s are more than a3s, yet relatively a3s sound more like a5s. And the magnetic field of the a3s is more dense. Hence, less pull would result in higher sustain with a3s (of course this is theoretical, I do not think such a difference could be detected by human ear).

And the winding process, the slug pieces ... are all very important. As long as one does not have such information, understanding the magnet type from hearin it in action (body wood etc are all ignore) is impossible.

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

I'm not sure you can really do that...the expert pickup winders I know tell me you can just make an educated guess as to whether an old magnet is alnico 2, 3, 4 or 5, but you can't know for certain.

Lew

I agree, an informed pickup winders opinion is hard to beat.

But technically, you can determine the grade of the magnet. But I figure it would involve taking a sample small chip no?) and checking it out with laboratory exquipment.

OR very sensitive weight measurements and density computation should be also good enough, as long as the compositions contained in the following list (thanks to Tim White) do not have the same density:

Alnico %AL %NI %CO %CU

1 12 21 5 -
2 10 17 12 6
3 12 25 - 3
4 12 28 5 -
5 8 14 24 3

PS. Another difference between a1-4 and a5 is the way they are cooled. As far as I understand only a5s are cooled in a magnetic field. Send me a PM for more details, so that I can send you the relevant links.

 

[beandip]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

Damn guys, ya'll just shut me up quick. Really and truely, I have no idea if he's 100% certain, but going from my knowlege and his, I really do think they're A2's, and plus, there isnt that A5 sound there. Its much more rounded and warm than higher output and springy.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Real Original PAF magnets?

Damn guys, ya'll just shut me up quick. Really and truely, I have no idea if he's 100% certain, but going from my knowlege and his, I really do think they're A2's, and plus, there isnt that A5 sound there. Its much more rounded and warm than higher output and springy.

Hey,

I am not trying to be an ass. Please don't get me wrong.

And another thing, do not jump to conclusions about the magnet type by hearing the tone. Unless you can control all the other important variables there are too many things at work. That is in the very same guitar, you need to hear another pickup with the very same construction,very same type of slug pieces .... but this time with an a5 magnet.

To see my point check my wood test thread:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=33

Using that logic of yours, wouldn't one say ash sounds more like a5 and alder more like a2? The truth is that they are the very same pickup, but the body wood is different.

And I believe that the most important determinant is not the magnet type, but the wood itself. Magnets, pickups are cool, I have done tons of mag-mods etc, yet the change they can provide is limited. And if a guitar sounds great, it would sound great with any magnet (with some it would sound even better). See?

B