Recorded classic rock bass

Tom M

Tom M

New member
What is it about that classic rock/blues bass sound that just makes it sound an octave lower and incredibly thick, but not muddy? "Modern" bass sounds are much brighter, clankier, and more easily heard. The classic rock stuff is just deep and thick, the stuff that makes the room vibrate.

So what's different? Player preferences on EQ and technique? Recording techniques (digital versus analog)? Maybe the way a lot of newer guitar tracks have more low end dialed in so the bass finds other parts of the spectrum to occupy?

Surely it can't be as simple as players preferring roundwound strings now versus only really having flatwounds 30 years ago?
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

my guess would have to be the rise in 'high gain' gear since the 70's. Now, a lot of bands have to find a way to get the bass through the mix, and sound well with modern guitar tones...

but like I said, just a guess.
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

IMO two major factors-

If you're talking about the beginnings of rock bass- Jamerson is where it started. What was he using? Ampeg B-15. John Paul Jones- Acoustic with 15s in the cabs. McCartney- 100w Vox and 2x15cab, Geddy Lee. Ampeg 2x15 cabs...

Bassicaly, you're talking about tube powered heads going through 15s. And not just 15s, but lower wattage rated 15s- I don't think there was a 200w rated 15 until the early 80s (I could totally be wrong...) If you're talking about older stuff (early 70s and earlier) you're generally talking about 100-150w of tube heads, so you're dealing with breakup AS WELL AS the "roundness" of tube power. Once you start getting into the mid-70s, the SVT with 300w becomes the standard head, where you've got the "wooly" of tube power- you've got headroom to spare.

Most modern bass gear is solid state- especially in the power sections. There's so much more clarity and that goes until the amp clips- which for a 600w amp, that's a lot of volume- the speaker is breaking up before the amp is going to clip...

To sum it up:

15" speakers

Lower wattage rated 15" speakers

Tube heads

Lower wattage tube heads
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

chopstherocker said:
Listen to Tommy Shannon (SRV's bassist) and Duck Dunn. Both were very actice int he 80's with group like SRV and Double Trouble and Blues Brothers respectivly.
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I am, and that's what's intriguing me. Everything until somewhere in the late 70s or early 80s just sounded so thick, full, and wonderful.

Golden Boy - thanks for the insight, I might hunt around and try out a low-wattage rig at band practice someday.
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

The ability to make the "modern" bass tones comes from the gear, but the desire to sound that way comes from the player.

Example: Check out Sonny Landreth's bass player on the Grant Street live CD. Fantastic deep classic bass sound, but performed on 21st century gear.
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

i hate the modern click click fart bass tone, drives me nuts

i think it has more to do with the amps than the speakers. an ampeg 8x10 with a svt is the classic bass rig imo. bigger than a refridgerator and just as heavy but even at low volume the tone is big and round. i used to play with a guy who used his svt for every gig, even tiny 75 seat bars. he even had a an old b15 but that "is for the studio only, it doesn't travel" i heard that after helping him hump that monstrosity up to the second floor on a ricketty fire escape stairway.

rich makes a good point. i have an ampeg svt5pro and run it thru a carvin 4x10 and i can get a big round old school bass tone with out much fuss. i also have a pair of ampeg portabass 10"s that sound very old school but are very inefficient so even with hundreds of watts going thru them they arent loud enough for much over a 100 seat club. part of my thinking on why they sound so good is the amp is running hard and so are those poor underpowered 10's which goes back to some of what the golden boy was saying
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

Tom M said:
I am, and that's what's intriguing me. Everything until somewhere in the late 70s or early 80s just sounded so thick, full, and wonderful.
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Being a former bass player (11 years) I would hve to say big speakers (@least 15"), lots of creamy lows and low mids, and most importantly: Play With Your Fingers.:soapbox:
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

It probably doesn't help that the standard way of recording bass now is direct in. Mic up a bass cab and you get a very different sound than a DI box will give you . . . it's a lot more old school.
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

GuitarStv said:
It probably doesn't help that the standard way of recording bass now is direct in. Mic up a bass cab and you get a very different sound than a DI box will give you . . . it's a lot more old school.
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Ain't that the truth... There's a whole world of difference in the DI and mic'ed cab sound-

When I record I use my old Jazz bass, with it's 40 year old passive Jazz Bass pickups- that bass is money in the studio. My main live bass has an onboard preamp and stuff- and it cuts through a live mix so well, but in the recording process it sometimes comes across as "sterile."

The Jazz through a DI sounds so wimpy and wussy, but run it through the amp and through the speakers- that's a pants fillingly good sound.
WORSHIPTEAM said:
most importantly: Play With Your Fingers.:soapbox:
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I don't go for that. When you realize that McCartney almost always used a pick (especially for recording) and a majority of the first three Zeppelin albums were done with JPJ using a pick...
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

So what kind of mics are effective for recording bass speakers? I didn't try for too long, but didn't have much luck with 57s or 58s. Just ended up running into the board from the DI out on my head.
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

Tom M said:
So what's different? Player preferences on EQ and technique? Recording techniques (digital versus analog)? Maybe the way a lot of newer guitar tracks have more low end dialed in so the bass finds other parts of the spectrum to occupy?
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All of the above.

There's a trend in "modern" recordings to make everything super scooped & bright, from the kick drum to the lead vocal.

Ever notice that anything released in the last 5-10 years is just WAAAAAAAAY brighter & has less overall midrange then anything from 30 years ago?

Back in the day even kick drums had tons of midrange, LOTS of power around 500Hz, where the trend now is to dump all that, boost the way low & boost the top for the attack...smash it all with compressors & limiters while tracking, smash it all again while mixiing and then annilliate whatever tone & dynamics are left in mastering.

No wonder "modern" records sound like shlt.

The vast majority of them anyway...I'm really digging Bonnie Raits new disc & there are some guys who'll buck that trend but it even stems from label A&R pushing producers towards that kinda crappy sound.

Anyway, back in the day there was a lot more in the 150-250Hz range on those old records and you can't put the amount of top end onto vinyl that you can to a CD...it's physically impossible...so less top end = a perceived impression of more low end.



What mics are good for bass?

I reach for small diaphragm condensors first...KM84 is a great choice...the AT4051 is pretty nifty too...

Dynamics like an RE-20 or 421 are always solid...the old AKG D12 is KILLER but the D112 sounds like a broken basketball...

Even an SM57 will work if the bass player is putting out a good tone.

The "trick" to ANY of these is to spend some time sweeping the mic around until you find the sweet spot. Ideally you've got one person playing, another dude SLOWLY sweeping the mic around in front of the speaker & someone else listening in the control room...

Assuming you have a seperate control room to listen in.

Bass is also one of those things were quality gear counts. Having a micamp with balls & a solid power supply that can provide ample current to form a full lowend cycle...

If all you've got around is a SmackMe mixer & some Alesis compressors...well...

You're pretty much screwed from the get-go.

That stuff makes the bass, and really, ANY audio smaller.

Don't count out the DI approach though...that's ALL some cats use...

Anything Tchad Blakes engineered in the last few years...Pearl Jam, Soul Coughing, Los Lobos...that's all DI.

He actually runs two of 'em. One clean off the bass & the other is from a Sans Amp, all compressed & EQ'd to taste.

Peace,
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

J Moose said:
All of the above...

...Peace,
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Thanks a ton for that writeup! Next time I have both my amp and some mics handy, I'll try that stuff. I don't have access to much great recording gear, but I figure with some of your tips, it'll be an improvement at least.

Fascinating how stuff changes, eh?
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

J Moose said:
LOL
I could always hop on a train or a plane...
Do it all the time!
:drive:
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I hear ya! There is actuallya real cool all analog studio here in Atlanta thats owned by the guys from Man or Astro Man that was personally set up by Steve Albini...in the long run I am gonna record some stuff there but just haven't done it yet...
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

the guy who invented fire said:
I hear ya! There is actuallya real cool all analog studio here in Atlanta thats owned by the guys from Man or Astro Man that was personally set up by Steve Albini...in the long run I am gonna record some stuff there but just haven't done it yet...
Click to expand...

Is that the place the Pumpkins' Siamese Dream was recorded at? The first place I heard of that all 72 tracks being used on a song...
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

Tom M said:
So what kind of mics are effective for recording bass speakers? I didn't try for too long, but didn't have much luck with 57s or 58s. Just ended up running into the board from the DI out on my head.
Click to expand...

Like you, I haven't had any luck with 57s or 58s. I'm trying to remember what was used on the best pants-wettingly-bulge-inducing bass sound I've recorded. I believe it was a "square" AKG or maybe Neumann mic. I'm pretty sure it was an AKG. About 1' from the center of the 15 of my SWR Triad cab. That was the most massive bass sound- until mastering and that squashed it all to hell. But I remember doing those mixes...
 
Re: Recorded classic rock bass

Tom M said:
Thanks a ton for that writeup! Next time I have both my amp and some mics handy, I'll try that stuff. I don't have access to much great recording gear, but I figure with some of your tips, it'll be an improvement at least.

Fascinating how stuff changes, eh?
Click to expand...

Other then the move to digital and mass quantitys of lackluster prosumer gear, not much has really changed in the last 20 years or so.

Really, for the most part everyone that's working is STILL using stuff that was made 20, 30, 40+ years ago or new recreations of old gear like a Soundelux iFet rather then a Neumann 47Fet or Daking EQ's instead of Trident A-range EQ's.

SSL consoles & Fool Toolz not withstanding...

Anyway, next time out use some compression on the bass. I usually smash it down pretty hard but I own & have access to seriously kool stuff here that doesn't thin-out the low end when you lean into it hard.

I usually start with something like a 4:1 ratio pulling back around 3-10dB and there's usually almost always some amount of gain reduction happening whenever a note is played on "rock" stuff. Medium to longish release times are good, make it too fast & the low end will choke & fold on itself. Same thing with super-fast attacks, the notes won't have a chance to develop & bloom. Muck with 'em and see how the changes affect the tone...

The subject of EQ is a WHOLE other barrel of monkeys...

Magik ranges to muck with are usually 40-80Hz; 150-250Hz; 800-ish and 1k5-4kHz for the string noise & attack.

the guy who invented fire said:
I hear ya! There is actuallya real cool all analog studio here in Atlanta thats owned by the guys from Man or Astro Man that was personally set up by Steve Albini...in the long run I am gonna record some stuff there but just haven't done it yet...
Click to expand...

Man or Astroman beings some aural images to mind!

You ever hear of a cat in Savannah named Kevin Rose?

http://elevatedbasement.com/

There's also Zac recording which is in Atlanta...way more "hi-fi" though...

http://www.zacrecording.com/stonehenge_recording.htm

Anyway, once I get that new shop together in central IL 'ya might want to drop by...it's gonna be SICK on all accounts! Really...just freakin' drool inducing...
 
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