Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

[ItsaBass]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

Why steel wool? Wouldn't just rougher paper be much cleaner and do the same job?

The steel wool is a quick, cheap, and effective pre-sanding step just to give you a smooth matte finish. It'll sand better that way.

Scotchbrite will have the same result, but steel wool is effective and dirt cheap, and I've not once experienced an issue with it. Plus, doesn't every garage already have a lifetime supply of it sitting around?

I'm not emotionally connected to one or the other. Just so you do something other than going straight to 320/400 dry paper on gloss poly.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

To all who think that anything will stick to that finish, go ahead and do it and let me know how it works out for you in 5 years. I've been painting for well over 60 years and NO finish sticks to that finish (polyester, urethane, etc) as well as to bare wood. Sealers are chemically designed to adhere to the finish coats added on top of it. A finish coat like poly is chemically designed to cure hard and to prevent anything from sticking to it. Yes, mechanical adhesion is improved by sanding the poly, but you will NOT get a very good connection and you will NOT get ANY chemical bond.

Like I said earlier...this IS an option. It will save you lots of time, lots of work, and lots of money, but it will NOT be as good as starting from bare wood.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

You wanted to be shown guitars over five years old that were some kind of finish held on to the sealer coat by mechanical adhesion only. Open your eyes; they are all around you, including on some of the most sought after guitars of all time.

Every Fender American made reissue going back to the early '80s (with the exception of the brief American Vintage line from late 2012 through 2017) is lacquer over poly sealer. In other words, the Vintage Series, AVRI Series, and AO series (but not the AV Series) all did this. Road Worn Series, Highway One Series, perhaps others as well. Aside from the 2013–2017 AV line and certain Custom Shop reissues, nnything Fender has done since about 1980, poly or lacquer, has had a poly sealer underneath it – i.e. mechanical adhesion of subsequent coats to the sealer.

Every Fender from 1963 to 1980 used a catalyzed varnish sealer (i.e. not a solvent based finish) called Fullerplast, to which there was zero chemical adhesion by the subsequent coats – all mechanical. '63 to '67 put all lacquer over the Fullerplast. '68 to '80 put lacquer over it for sunbursts, and then poly clear went over that. Non burst colors '68 to '80 were two coats of poly over the Fullerplast (one color, one clear). Some custom colors still used their original acrylic lacquer over the Fullerplast, with poly on top of that!

Poly finished guitars are usually poly color and clear over poly sealer as well. No chemical adhesion there!

And as mentioned, I did lacquer over the stock poly on a set neck guitar for my bandmate more than five years ago.

By sheer production numbers, most guitars ever made have been something over a poly sealer, with zero chemical adhesion between the sealer and subsequent coats.

How do you think ​modern car paints work, other than by mechanical adhesion? The auto and auto paint industries aren't using solvent based car finishes except on perfect vintage restorations, and haven't been doing so in any real quantities for over 50 years.

I also notice how you are backing away from your original statements by adding "as well as to bare wood." Well, that is a given. That was never in dispute. The issue is whether painting over poly is highly problematic in any way, not whether or not it sticks better than it does to wood.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Refinish a veneer squire, or replace the body?

By sheer production numbers, most guitars ever made have been something over a poly sealer, with zero chemical adhesion between the sealer and subsequent coats.

You didn't read my post? Sealers, whether poly, lacquer, or shellac, are designed to adhere to whatever is applied on top of them to an extent. They are not at all like a poly finish coat. But to increase adhesion to that finish coat, sanding helps and a coat of shellac also helps.

How do you think ​modern car paints work, other than by mechanical adhesion? The auto and auto paint industries aren't using solvent based car finishes except on perfect vintage restorations, and haven't been doing so in any real quantities for over 50 years.

You are correct. Modern car paints are a catalysed finish which is designed to have the same modulus of elasticity as the metal it covers. It is very durable and resistant to scratching and chipping. But if you have ever seen a car that had a dent which exceeded those specific parameters, you will have noticed that the paint actually had very little chemical adhesion to the primer and it easily peels off in large pieces. The paint on cars is not dependent so much on chemical adhesion. Every "paint" is designed for its specific purpose and when used properly they work very well. But there is no panacea. They all have their drawbacks.

I also notice how you are backing away from your original statements by adding "as well as to bare wood." Well, that is a given. That was never in dispute. The issue is whether painting over poly is highly problematic in any way, not whether or not it sticks better than it does to wood.

What are you talking about? I'm not backing away from ANYTHING I've said. Read all of my posts again. In every single one I have maintained that the best finish is going to come from proper painting on bare wood, but that finishing over the existing paint can be ok, and will save time, money, and elbow grease, but won't be as good (unless you're going for a relic finish...in which case paint that easily chips off and leaves another underlying color/finish may be desirable).

I'm not trying to give the impression that I know it all, I don't. And I'm still learning a lot. But of which I have spoken about in this thread...you can take it to the bank. You just have to read it correctly.