REVEALED: Celestion's F12M -150 "Triple Cone" for amp modellers
- Thread starter Securb
- Start date
Artie
Peaveyologist
Interesting new product. And I like the idea of a "hi-fi" guitar speaker. But I've always questioned whizzer cones as "artificial" tweeters. The reason a tweeter can produce higher frequencies is because of it's smaller diameter and mass. Lets say that 12" cone can produce xHz as an upper limit. Wouldn't adding more mass, by virtue of the two additional paper cones reduce the upper limit?
I don't know. I'm just asking. I'm sure Celestion did their homework. I'll look for more 'Tube vids.
Thanks for the heads up.
I don't know. I'm just asking. I'm sure Celestion did their homework. I'll look for more 'Tube vids.
Thanks for the heads up.
It definitely seems like a marketing thing to me. Whizzer cone speakers generally have some pretty severe issues with linearity and off-axis sound dispersion. They can sound decent on-axis, but what good is that if you are at an obtuse angle to the thing?
These days, a coaxial speaker with a passive built-in crossover should be a walk in the park to design for this application. In fact, I'm kind of shocked that the guitar community at large hasn't realized yet that anything saying FRFR is simply describing a PA speaker. It just goes to show that there is still always someone who will try and sell ice to an Eskimo.
These days, a coaxial speaker with a passive built-in crossover should be a walk in the park to design for this application. In fact, I'm kind of shocked that the guitar community at large hasn't realized yet that anything saying FRFR is simply describing a PA speaker. It just goes to show that there is still always someone who will try and sell ice to an Eskimo.
Animal
Well-known member
Heh, when she turned the IR on it sounded like a blanket over the speaker cab.
Kind of ironic that the speaker is designed with extended high frequency response so that it can be muzzled with an IR.
They've gone for the edgy lifestyle type of videography here. I wonder if she has a try-on haul channel and a Twitch stream.
Kind of ironic that the speaker is designed with extended high frequency response so that it can be muzzled with an IR.
They've gone for the edgy lifestyle type of videography here. I wonder if she has a try-on haul channel and a Twitch stream.
Masta' C
Well-known member
Maybe a ToneBra or a DIY "Mitchell Doughnut" would help?
ToneBra: http://dbinstrumentamp.com/products/tonebra-by-la-custom-electric/
Jay Mitchell Doughnut:
Last edited:
If you really want to be surprised just take a 2x4 and place it in front of your speaker. depending on the angle and position in front of the speaker you can create all kinds of different sounds. Honestly, if you are a player, simply placing a spare guitar in front of your cab will do all kinds of good stuff for you. You can use it to help keep from killing the front row of fans to using the guitar as a reflector to shoot the sound to another place on the stage.
Masta' C
Well-known member
I think the advantage of the "Jay Mitchell Doughnut" is that it disperses the sound rather equally in all directions, including out the front, so you're reducing the beaming effect, but not "blocking" or redirecting sound to the extent that placing a solid object in front of the speaker would do
I think the major downside to " beam blockers " and other gimmicks used to make a guitar cab do a certain thing is how do you mic it? In the case of a beam blocker, it is a physical device that is between the speaker cone and the mic. With the Whizzer, it is producing artifacts that may or may not translate well, especially if you mic off-axis, to the resultant sound.
I am a live sound engineer and I mic guitar cabs every day for a living. During festivals or other fast-paced events with multiple bands, I don't get the luxury of having lots of time to move a mic around to find the best position. I will set the mic in the middle of the two extremes ( the edge of the speaker cone and or directly at the dust cap ) usually setting the mic so its center is split by the dust cap and the speaker cone. If the sound is too bright I can move it more into the speaker cone, and if the sound is too dark and woofy, I can move it directly over the dust cap. going to the middle of the two extremes usually means I don't have to make more than one adjustment. But if there is a beam blocker of other strange things, I am shooting in the dark as to what will get me to the end zone quickest.
Most everything with live sound is a compromise. If you do one thing to improve X, it can often have a Y outcome to something else.
I recently got a Two Notes Captor X. It is an amazing tool that for myself, would rely on 100% for feeding my amps sound to FOH and monitors. It is that good. Not that micing an amp is such a hard job, but always being able to have the same sound no matter what is nice. If I could sell the idea to those that played on my stages I would. A little pricey, but worth not having to drag a speaker cabinet with you.
I am a live sound engineer and I mic guitar cabs every day for a living. During festivals or other fast-paced events with multiple bands, I don't get the luxury of having lots of time to move a mic around to find the best position. I will set the mic in the middle of the two extremes ( the edge of the speaker cone and or directly at the dust cap ) usually setting the mic so its center is split by the dust cap and the speaker cone. If the sound is too bright I can move it more into the speaker cone, and if the sound is too dark and woofy, I can move it directly over the dust cap. going to the middle of the two extremes usually means I don't have to make more than one adjustment. But if there is a beam blocker of other strange things, I am shooting in the dark as to what will get me to the end zone quickest.
Most everything with live sound is a compromise. If you do one thing to improve X, it can often have a Y outcome to something else.
I recently got a Two Notes Captor X. It is an amazing tool that for myself, would rely on 100% for feeding my amps sound to FOH and monitors. It is that good. Not that micing an amp is such a hard job, but always being able to have the same sound no matter what is nice. If I could sell the idea to those that played on my stages I would. A little pricey, but worth not having to drag a speaker cabinet with you.
Masta' C
Well-known member
To be clear, the "Jay Mitchell Doughnut" isn't a "beam blocker", it's more of a diffuser. Also, it is the brainchild of an ACTUAL audio engineer (i.e. a guy with a science degree who literally designs speakers and sound systems...Jay Mitchell of Frazier Speakers).
Just did a quick search and was surprised to find that he actually graced these forums just over a decade ago to clarify some misconceptions in this thread here: https://forum.seymourduncan.com/foru...vity-mod/page2
Just did a quick search and was surprised to find that he actually graced these forums just over a decade ago to clarify some misconceptions in this thread here: https://forum.seymourduncan.com/foru...vity-mod/page2
The TLDR synopsis of what's below:
Masta' C was a little rude and out of line. I am going to give him a talking to. I am not any better than he is, but at least he will know how he affected others ( not just me ). Throwing shade and being rude isn't nice, and this is how it feels..... if you continue to read.
So you're telling me that an ACTUAL audio engineer isn't someone who gets paid for a living, as in it's the only thing they do to make money, doing sound for bands, putting multi-million dollar PA systems up in the sky, tuning them, and running them for names you have heard of? So what does that make me? Are you an ACTUAL musician, or do you just play as one on the weekends? Catch my drift... To be clear. Not saying, just saying. Sorry I spent 20 years trying to make a musician's life better. I didn't contribute ANY amount of scientific knowledge to anything I have ever done and got paid to do so... I have also been a musician ( err, guit-fiddler ) for 27+ years, I don't know crap about anything. I don't carry conversations with people, giving input and thought about solutions and idea's that they can then integrate, design, and introduce to the masses in products ACTUAL Audio Engineers buy. Oh wait, I do that. I just sent a video today explaining and clarifying a concept for a guy who designs stuff for EAW and Powersoft amplification. I am presenting ideas to a guy who has invented countless solutions that sound guys use every day, has done sound for countless numbers of bands that you possibly worship, and also holds several patents, and will create several more. I am just some pee-on though.
I said very clearly, I don't have time for whack-a-mole all the time. A beam blocker, a diffuser, or an asshole farting the national anthem, I have to put a mic in front of it and get a result right now. Not when I figure out how to backwards engineer a product, or plug my nose and still have both hands available. I don't often get the luxury of TIME to figure that out. Especially if it is behind a speaker grill and can't see it clearly. I also said that in live sound ( an actual job where people get paid as professionals to do something that no ACTUAL engineering degree exists, yet are still considered after some point to be an engineer), most everything is a COMPROMISE. As in what you do to fix X problem, could create another problem.
Audio is 90% physics and 10% art. There is no such thing as an Audio Engineering degree. You can be an Acoustitician, which there is a degree for ( basically a physics degree ), you can also get a degree in Physics, but you will only touch the surface of the art of ACTUALLY doing/mixing audio/sound. Most Acoustiticians and Physicists, don't ACTUALLY do sound, they help solve other problems related to it. Why is that? Because most Acousticians and Physicists that have an innate knowledge of sound can't actually run a mixing desk, let alone mix a band. Most people with those degrees, can't put a multi-million dollar PA in the sky and actually run it. They are really good at designing solutions to audio problems though. Some even make money doing it, by selling you a foam donut... I said in an earlier post you can stick a piece of wood in front of your guitar cab and produce results, I'm an F-N engineer now! It isn't that they are incapable, it is that they have EARNED a degree in science, and tend to stick to doing things that pay them for that knowledge. You don't start as a " sound guy " for Tool or Metallica and then decide to go get a degree in physics to never mix a band again. Being a sound engineer requires a VERY high level of knowledge that goes well beyond just science. Audio guy's have to know how to run sophisticated data networks, how to network, optimize and run wireless audio ( RF ) systems, how to operate sophisticated PA systems prediction software, and how to set up and operate audio consoles that most people couldn't even figure out how to unmute a channel on. On top of that, you have to know how to read schematics and blueprints, know the laws of rigging and flying stuff in the sky, you also have to know a fair amount about electrical power and what your PA's demands are, how to connect your power distribution systems to a generator or other power supply, and on top of all that, you actually have to know how to mix a band, which then means yet another set of skills in how compressors, limiters, gates, EQ, software plugins and a multitude of mixers and their implementations of each of those functions work. And we haven't even touched the surface on the level of physics knowledge you must have in order to do a lot of those different tasks, design the PA you're going to use, how to tune it, the software you will use to help tune it and still have half a soul left to be a personable human being that can get along with people after spending 12 hours in airports and on flights to arrive at 6 am. the next morning to do all those tasks mentioned above, take it all down, and be on another flight the next morning at 6 am. to do it all over again... If you have ever wondered why " Sound Engineer's " are so moody, it's because someone like you comes along and says " an actual engineer " and my opinion is just as empirical and valid.......... FFS. Go to a donkey show and get a sense of humor.
Just because some asshole on the interwebs says he isn't fond of gimmicky, weird, or even useful problem solutions, doesn't mean they aren't credible, or hold a degree. You ASSumed I don't have an Engineering degree... Even If I don't, that doesn't make you less of a twat for demeaning mine or others' integrity, credibility, or right to THINK. What you're really saying is that ANY musician that carries an opinion of sound, has ZERO credibility, or right to say anything about it because they are not a sound ANYTHING and have no real input that will change the outcome. Get back on the stage, play the guitar and quit bugging me for more 250hz in your monitor... Musician.
So to be even more clear, You ( Masta' C ) made me upset ( and no I don't have feelers and I'm not a snowflake, I'm 42; I have my Balls and Testosterone still ), and you were a D word of many varieties.
I THINK. I THINK. I THINK. I THINK. Read that to yourself a thousand times. I THINK you should get off Jay Mitchell's D.....onut, and let others THINK freely. Certainly don't undermine them and throw shade with the crap you just said. " An ACTUAL audio engineer ".....
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. You wouldn't know I was a sound engineer/ " sound guy " or not anyway, but that doesn't excuse you from being an undermining jerk saying things the way you did. Just state the facts, minus the tongue-in-cheek slights and throwing of shade.
I wish you well, but damn you pissed me off with that. Good day sir
Masta' C was a little rude and out of line. I am going to give him a talking to. I am not any better than he is, but at least he will know how he affected others ( not just me ). Throwing shade and being rude isn't nice, and this is how it feels..... if you continue to read.
So you're telling me that an ACTUAL audio engineer isn't someone who gets paid for a living, as in it's the only thing they do to make money, doing sound for bands, putting multi-million dollar PA systems up in the sky, tuning them, and running them for names you have heard of? So what does that make me? Are you an ACTUAL musician, or do you just play as one on the weekends? Catch my drift... To be clear. Not saying, just saying. Sorry I spent 20 years trying to make a musician's life better. I didn't contribute ANY amount of scientific knowledge to anything I have ever done and got paid to do so... I have also been a musician ( err, guit-fiddler ) for 27+ years, I don't know crap about anything. I don't carry conversations with people, giving input and thought about solutions and idea's that they can then integrate, design, and introduce to the masses in products ACTUAL Audio Engineers buy. Oh wait, I do that. I just sent a video today explaining and clarifying a concept for a guy who designs stuff for EAW and Powersoft amplification. I am presenting ideas to a guy who has invented countless solutions that sound guys use every day, has done sound for countless numbers of bands that you possibly worship, and also holds several patents, and will create several more. I am just some pee-on though.
I said very clearly, I don't have time for whack-a-mole all the time. A beam blocker, a diffuser, or an asshole farting the national anthem, I have to put a mic in front of it and get a result right now. Not when I figure out how to backwards engineer a product, or plug my nose and still have both hands available. I don't often get the luxury of TIME to figure that out. Especially if it is behind a speaker grill and can't see it clearly. I also said that in live sound ( an actual job where people get paid as professionals to do something that no ACTUAL engineering degree exists, yet are still considered after some point to be an engineer), most everything is a COMPROMISE. As in what you do to fix X problem, could create another problem.
Audio is 90% physics and 10% art. There is no such thing as an Audio Engineering degree. You can be an Acoustitician, which there is a degree for ( basically a physics degree ), you can also get a degree in Physics, but you will only touch the surface of the art of ACTUALLY doing/mixing audio/sound. Most Acoustiticians and Physicists, don't ACTUALLY do sound, they help solve other problems related to it. Why is that? Because most Acousticians and Physicists that have an innate knowledge of sound can't actually run a mixing desk, let alone mix a band. Most people with those degrees, can't put a multi-million dollar PA in the sky and actually run it. They are really good at designing solutions to audio problems though. Some even make money doing it, by selling you a foam donut... I said in an earlier post you can stick a piece of wood in front of your guitar cab and produce results, I'm an F-N engineer now! It isn't that they are incapable, it is that they have EARNED a degree in science, and tend to stick to doing things that pay them for that knowledge. You don't start as a " sound guy " for Tool or Metallica and then decide to go get a degree in physics to never mix a band again. Being a sound engineer requires a VERY high level of knowledge that goes well beyond just science. Audio guy's have to know how to run sophisticated data networks, how to network, optimize and run wireless audio ( RF ) systems, how to operate sophisticated PA systems prediction software, and how to set up and operate audio consoles that most people couldn't even figure out how to unmute a channel on. On top of that, you have to know how to read schematics and blueprints, know the laws of rigging and flying stuff in the sky, you also have to know a fair amount about electrical power and what your PA's demands are, how to connect your power distribution systems to a generator or other power supply, and on top of all that, you actually have to know how to mix a band, which then means yet another set of skills in how compressors, limiters, gates, EQ, software plugins and a multitude of mixers and their implementations of each of those functions work. And we haven't even touched the surface on the level of physics knowledge you must have in order to do a lot of those different tasks, design the PA you're going to use, how to tune it, the software you will use to help tune it and still have half a soul left to be a personable human being that can get along with people after spending 12 hours in airports and on flights to arrive at 6 am. the next morning to do all those tasks mentioned above, take it all down, and be on another flight the next morning at 6 am. to do it all over again... If you have ever wondered why " Sound Engineer's " are so moody, it's because someone like you comes along and says " an actual engineer " and my opinion is just as empirical and valid.......... FFS. Go to a donkey show and get a sense of humor.
Just because some asshole on the interwebs says he isn't fond of gimmicky, weird, or even useful problem solutions, doesn't mean they aren't credible, or hold a degree. You ASSumed I don't have an Engineering degree... Even If I don't, that doesn't make you less of a twat for demeaning mine or others' integrity, credibility, or right to THINK. What you're really saying is that ANY musician that carries an opinion of sound, has ZERO credibility, or right to say anything about it because they are not a sound ANYTHING and have no real input that will change the outcome. Get back on the stage, play the guitar and quit bugging me for more 250hz in your monitor... Musician.
So to be even more clear, You ( Masta' C ) made me upset ( and no I don't have feelers and I'm not a snowflake, I'm 42; I have my Balls and Testosterone still ), and you were a D word of many varieties.
I THINK. I THINK. I THINK. I THINK. Read that to yourself a thousand times. I THINK you should get off Jay Mitchell's D.....onut, and let others THINK freely. Certainly don't undermine them and throw shade with the crap you just said. " An ACTUAL audio engineer ".....
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. You wouldn't know I was a sound engineer/ " sound guy " or not anyway, but that doesn't excuse you from being an undermining jerk saying things the way you did. Just state the facts, minus the tongue-in-cheek slights and throwing of shade.
I wish you well, but damn you pissed me off with that. Good day sir
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
I don't have a dog in this fight but do want to point out Berklee does have a major in Music Production and Engineering.
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
I can just see the marketing people sitting around a table...
"We need to be more contemporary, reach a younger market and speak to them in something besides Led Zepplin"
"Yeah - we should try to look a lot like an independent YouTube Creator"
"Great idea! Lets get some kids in dark clothing and use a bunch of flash curt edits!"
'Yeah - that will make it look really authentic!"
"How about some pop up icon images in the video, like a dollar sign?"
"Ooh - great idea. This will sooo not look like a marketing video!"
LesStrat
Reining PunLowered
:yeah:, google disagrees with his assertion.
https://www.google.com/search?q=deg...j0j4&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
I was going to put another paragraph explaining that these schools that say they offer Audio Engineering degrees are a farse. An engineering degree has to be a science degree. Music theory, recording theory, live sound theory et all, don't have enough science. Most of these schools teach you how to write a song ( with music theory ), be able to record it ( for obvious reasons ), and have at least some idea of sound principles. That's it. When you leave, you get a Bachelor's degree in Art or Music. There is NO specific degree that earns you a Live Sound Engineer, or Audio Engineer. Getting a Bachelor's degree in applied science is one step closer to being an actual engineer, but is still more just a vocational grade level of education. In order to actually call yourself an engineer, you have to have a degree in Physics, Computer Sciences, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, or similar and be registerable through a Board of Engineering.
Many Audio Engineers don't often know anything about how to write a song, let alone play an instrument. What they do know, requires YEARS of hands-on work. You cannot teach a student everything there is to know about sound in an 11-month course. Going through and learning all the different software's would take that long. Each of the major manufacturers of PA systems wants you to attend their seminars in order to learn hands-on specific knowledge of their product and how to utilize its technology. There are at least a half dozen of them and they usually have three tiers of learning courses. You couldn't get through all of them in a year if you devoted 100% of your time.
Doing live audio as a sound engineer ( Technician if you want to be petty ) is mostly math and science. Stuff that can be learned and taught. There are literally so many different things to learn that NO school could possibly apply a curriculum specifically for it. Full Sail only scratches the surface, it's an 11-month program, and most students don't advance beyond that. Most try and find a job doing sound only to find out that the employers want EXPERIENCE. Why is that? Because they don't want some kid who just got out of school playing with their multi-million dollar PA system and messing with their reputation.
Being an Audio Engineer is kind of like being a Locomotive Engineer. There isn't a specific science degree to endow them with the Engineer credential, but because it is such a highly specialized skill, it is kind of accepted and recognized. If you ask an actual mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer, they may be less than amused about it, but it doesn't change the fact that the terms have become accepted.
The last little bit of being a sound person is the actual artistic side of it. Just as a recording engineer captures a song and the world gets to hear it, the same goes for a live sound engineer. There are SOOOO many tricks and different ways to apply all the available tools at our disposal, that each engineer can be 100% individual in their sound even when they all use the exact same mixer and peripherals. What separates the men from the boys is what they actually know about sound and the physics that dictate the job. A great mixing engineer can mix things amazingly well, but he is worthless as a live sound engineer if he doesn't know the first thing about how to put the PA together, tune it and run it within its design limitations.
I am all for defending a product that you believe in, but don't throw shade and demean other people's integrity by saying they don't have the slightest idea of X, Y, or Z, because they aren't AN ACTUAL something..... Especially when the thing you're defending is a FOAM DONUT. American Standard called and they said they want their toilet seat cushion back..... Get the heck outta here with that crap... Actual engineer...
Last edited:
Masta' C
Well-known member
Ewizard, I can name a dozen people right now that successfully do the same job as you for their profession. I'm not knocking the value of what you do, it's incredibly important and not everyone is cut out for it or can even do a good job at it. Being able to bridge the gap between sound production and sound recording is yet another skill that many struggle to excel at, so it's great that you have done well in these areas.
Nonetheless, it's important to point out that you've added nothing to the conversation aside from swinging your d*** around for everyone to see.
If you had any valid input on how the Jay Mitchell Doughnut method may or may not reduce the purported additional "beaming" of a whizzer cone speaker, that might be valuable, but you clearly have no experience with this particular method and are working on assumptions of other "blocking" technologies that aren't correct. Heck, in your latest post, you're comparing the function of a foam donut as it relates to modifying speaker output directionality to that of a useless toilet seat cushion.
At that point, it's more appropriate to just say "hmm...I don't know, I'm not familiar with that approach" than it is to sit here flashing your testosterone insecurities and calling names to take the attention off of the fact that you simply have no clue.
Nonetheless, it's important to point out that you've added nothing to the conversation aside from swinging your d*** around for everyone to see.
If you had any valid input on how the Jay Mitchell Doughnut method may or may not reduce the purported additional "beaming" of a whizzer cone speaker, that might be valuable, but you clearly have no experience with this particular method and are working on assumptions of other "blocking" technologies that aren't correct. Heck, in your latest post, you're comparing the function of a foam donut as it relates to modifying speaker output directionality to that of a useless toilet seat cushion.
At that point, it's more appropriate to just say "hmm...I don't know, I'm not familiar with that approach" than it is to sit here flashing your testosterone insecurities and calling names to take the attention off of the fact that you simply have no clue.
Last edited:
