SD Pole screw material? PAF screws & slugs?

[Wound_Up]

Anyone know what material(s), like 1010 or 1018 steel, Seymour Duncan uses for their pole screws in pickups like their '59 and Seth Lover? What about the slugs? Do they use the same material for both or something different like 1215 steel for the slugs?

Anyone know what the slugs and screws of a vintage PAF are made of? I recall reading that they were 1010 screws and 1215 slugs but I'm not 100% sure. So?

 

[freefrog]

Trade secrets and can of worms so I'll keep my answer sober by sharing only a few thoughts:

1)The carbon content of alloys is not the only question here IME/IMHO: slugs and screws also react differently to magnetism if they're plated or not, etc.

2)Metallurgy has changed since the 60's... I know of several pickups winders who have bought NOS steels and use them to mill their own parts instead of buying generic stamped keeper bars and so on.

FWIW (2 cents). ;-)

 

[Artie]

Seymour actually provides this info in the Duncan FAQ's. (Or at least, they used to.) But their FAQ's are so poorly organized, it's difficult to find specific information. It's one of my few criticisms of their website.

Edit: I don't see it anymore. Here's the closest to it, but not as much info as the original entry. https://seymourduncan.zendesk.com/h...t-Are-the-Various-Types-of-Adjustable-Screws-

 

[beaubrummels]

If you use the Archive / Wayback Machine, you can get an awful lot of really good information. It might be in there somewhere. But it's quite a hunt because the search doesn't work on archived pages.

See post #30
https://web.archive.org/web/2007102...mourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/2650/

https://web.archive.org/web/2007102...ymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/125/

Seymour is just an insane encylopedia. Post #185 is just one part of his magnet knoweldge.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/176200/

 

[Wound_Up]

Thank you! I appreciate it, you guys.

According to the Throbak guy, PAF's used anything from 1006 to 1010 or higher, IIRC, for screws and 1215 for slugs

 

[Wound_Up]

If you use the Archive / Wayback Machine, you can get an awful lot of really good information. It might be in there somewhere. But it's quite a hunt because the search doesn't work on archived pages.

See post #30
https://web.archive.org/web/2007102...mourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/2650/

https://web.archive.org/web/2007102...ymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/125/

Seymour is just an insane encylopedia. Post #185 is just one part of his magnet knoweldge.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/176200/

It took some link editing but I finally found post #185. WOW! There must have been 50+ magnets, 50+ definitions, as well as a lost of issues and what to look st when they arise. Man that was long!

 

[freefrog]

Yes, there's info on the Throbak site... but other winders would disagree with Jon Gundry and many of these artisans would seem reluctant to reveal which alloy(s) they actually use for their own P.A.F. clones. Until a contributor would come to claim that it makes "no difference"... Hence my initial comment about "trade secrets and can of worms".

Example of related topic: https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/different-alloys-for-slugs.316095/

About Duncan, there's also this one: https://music-electronics-forum.com...s-on-their-keepers-and-polepieces?view=thread

A thing is that P.A.F.'s involved steels made in open-hearth furnaces, no more available for decades, and whose reaction to magnetism is not necessarily the same than with modern alloys, whatever is their theoretical composition. Hence the use of NOS steels by boutique winders.

It's not for nothing either that I've mentioned keeper bars/pole shoes: they make a noticeable difference IME. At least as much as the composition of magnetic screw poles and slugs.

Last but not least, the whole is more than the sum of its parts when it comes to magnetic pickups, especially vintage ones. IMHO. IME. YMMV.

FWIW (2 other cents).

 

[Artie]

https://web.archive.org/web/2007102...ymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/125/

Cool info. It was funny reading about how Andy Summers Tele got demagnetized while riding on an electric London train.

 

[freefrog]

FWIW, there's various stories about Andy Summers and his demagnetized Tele. It was discussed a while back here:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...pickup-just-kind-of-die?p=6164044#post6164044

Not that it's important but I find it funny to read and interesting to know.

 

[AlexR]

Most serious PAF clone winders have done analysis of metallic compounds, and have their parts custom made to match that spec. Its one of the main reasons why they are so expensive - save for the hours the winder has spent in getting to the point where they can repeatedly get an accurate sounding pickup to what they are after.

Most winders won't share the specifics......they spent a lot of effort and probably sacrificed a vintage pickup to get the info so its not often they give away the precise details. 'Very low carbon steel' is what the book 'The Gibson PAF humbucking Pickup, from myth to reality' says from a winder who has done it. And quite frankly the guy who wrote the book (James Finnerty of ReWind) is the most generous sharer of info and if he's not willing to add in more I doubt anyone else would do so.

To be sure, mass produced Duncans are not going to go down that rabbithole - makes the pickup too expensive. They will take either the same alloy as is used for all of the other similar pickups, or take the modern version of what Seth might have remembered about the supply - if indeed he was up to speed on the alloys.

 

[jeremy]

i dont know what duncan uses, but they buy on a scale that few other builders could match. if there is something they want, and it makes enough difference, they would get it. granted with seymour less involved/semi-retired there may not be as much of a push to get those things if there are other available options. what i can say is that the antiquity bucker is as good as any paf clone ive tried. it might not be the specific flavor of paf you want, but that doesnt make it less good than a throbak, sunbear, cream t, rewind, wizz, or holmes. ive tried em all

 

[Wound_Up]

I appreciate all of the responses, you guys. Thank you! I was curious whether they'd actually say what they use at SD so I emailed customer support and asked them. I'll get a reply on Monday.

 

[AlexR]

It might not even make anything clearer. The composition of older metals might have the same 'number' but be significantly different in actual metals or imperfections present. Case in point - Alnico 2 and alnico 5 magnets from the 50's have opposite tonal properties to current A2 and A5.

 

[Mincer]

I bet the formulation has changed over the years.

 

[ToneFiddler]

It might not even make anything clearer. The composition of older metals might have the same 'number' but be significantly different in actual metals or imperfections present. Case in point - Alnico 2 and alnico 5 magnets from the 50's have opposite tonal properties to current A2 and A5.

Are those your own findings or Throbak descriptions?

 

[Wound_Up]

Well it doesn't matter anyway. I finally removed one of the screw poles and replaced it with one from the set I bought. Immediately, I could tell something wasn't right. The screw was wayyyyy too easy to screw in compared to how hard it was to remove the stock screw.

It seems that the aftermarket screws were just a hair too small. I confirmed this upon reinstallation of the stock screw. There was much more friction. So those aftermarket screws aren't the correct size.

 

[freefrog]

Well it doesn't matter anyway. I finally removed one of the screw poles and replaced it with one from the set I bought. Immediately, I could tell something wasn't right. The screw was wayyyyy too easy to screw in compared to how hard it was to remove the stock screw.

It seems that the aftermarket screws were just a hair too small. I confirmed this upon reinstallation of the stock screw. There was much more friction. So those aftermarket screws aren't the correct size.

Silicone plumbing tape around screws is your friend in such cases. It doesn't look nice but works well with P90 or humbuckers whose screw poles are not threaded in the baseplate, as they were in the past. I've even found plumbing tape in cheap stock Chinese pickups... Oh, and it avoids squealing due to mechanical vibrations, too.

As a footnote: was experimenting the past days with short VS long screw poles. Have mounted long poles in a bridge PU under the low strings and under high strings in the neck PU and conversely for short poles... The neck unit got less muddy and the bridge one became bassier... a bit too much, TBH. So the set ended with short screw poles under each string in neck position only. Cured the muddy low mids problem in this case. Not an original solution (it has been often evoked here or elsewhere) but remains efficient enough to justify this testimonial. ;-)