Serious P-Rails discussion

[Aceman]

I am thinking of of really doing up a DOT Studio.

What I would like to do is put in P-Rails and Triple Shot rings along with concentric volume and tone pots.

This guitar would be for Hot Blues, Cool Jazz, Rock, Rawk, and whatever else I felt inclined to play.

Tell me
A) All about the various tones for Blues/JAzz/Rock you have experienced with the various incarnations of P-Rails and
B) Comments on Triple Shots and
C) Suggestions regarding the concentric pots/electronics/wiring.

 

[indie folk guy]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

IMHO and of course YMMV the p-rails are a jack of all trades and master of none

my favorite tones where the neck or bridge alone in p90 mode or both rail coils together

I have used both sets (regular and hot)

I didn't care for the Hot with stock magnets you will definitely want some type of A5 magnet (I liked the unoriented best).

I think A3 and A4 mags where fun to try in the neck position.

The concentric pots would do what an individual vol/tone for each pickup and the triple shots let you choose which coil, etc?

I feel like the humbucking tones left a lot to be desired it's fine if you like a hot modern type of humbucker tone but they are not really very PAF'ish or vintagey

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I have a pair of P-Rails stashed away, waiting for the right host guitar. I have the regular neck PU and the Hot bridge PU. The idea that I intend to steal from GuitarDoc is to switch the magnets between the two pickups so that the stronger magnets are under the Rail coils.

If I am honest, I only REALLY want the P-90 sounds. Anything else is a bonus - especially on a guitar such as a PRS SE Semi-Hollow.

In my opinion and experience, stacked dual concentric control knobs are a PITA to use in a pressured playing situation. The only exception to this sweeping generalisation is for active EQ on bass guitar. Bassists tend to set the EQ per song rather than adjusting settings every few bars.

Since the Epi Dot Studio leaves the factory drilled for three controls, consider eliminating either the tone control or the pickup selector switch. With a VVT control layout, you can blend your pickups like a John 5 Telecaster or a Fender Jazz Bass.

 

[indie folk guy]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I have a pair of P-Rails stashed away, waiting for the right host guitar. I have the regular neck PU and the Hot bridge PU. The idea that I intend to steal from GuitarDoc is to switch the magnets between the two pickups so that the stronger magnets are under the Rail coils.

If I am honest, I only REALLY want the P-90 sounds. Anything else is a bonus - especially on a guitar such as a PRS SE Semi-Hollow.

In my opinion and experience, stacked dual concentric control knobs are a PITA to use in a pressured playing situation. The only exception to this sweeping generalisation is for active EQ on bass guitar. Bassists tend to set the EQ per song rather than adjusting settings every few bars.

Since the Epi Dot Studio leaves the factory drilled for three controls, consider eliminating either the tone control or the pickup selector switch. With a VVT control layout, you can blend your pickups like a John 5 Telecaster or a Fender Jazz Bass.

I pretty much agree on all points based on my experiences with all the above

I put concentric knobs on a bass but I steer clear on guitar because I like to at the very least use my volume knobs while I play

I think the P90 tone is pretty good on these pickups but I am spoiled because I have a very nice set of Lollar P90s and my friend has some very nice vintage Gibsons with the holy grail P90's in them (the Fralin and Antiquity P90's I have used came close but there is just a certain magic in the Lollar and vintage P90's).

And yeah I stopped getting uber adventurous when I mag swapped with the P-Rails I have a set stashed away still (of the regular set) but I'm not sure that I like them enough to really put them into anything at least for the time being. So if it were me again I'd just focus on finding the best magnets for the P90 tone you can find (since that's really were I feel the pickups shine. To me the rail coil seemed to sound nice with the A5 magnets but you could try the A8 mags there with the A5 on the P90 side.

I honestly feel that a good pair of PAF style humbuckers, nice filtertrons, a good P90, or a good single coil (tele, strat, dearmond/dynasonic) in an axe is a much better way to go than trying to get the P-Rail to do it all.

And when I want versatility in an axe good P90's are pretty much my go to as they sound very nice clean they are fat but clear and articulate and when they are driven they are very meaty, full, and have a nice gritty quality to them. Likewise I think a very good quality pickup of any type can handle everything in capable playing hands.

I love the innovative approach that the p-rails have and they really aren't horrid pickups I just felt they left a lot to be desired but this i scoming from a self proclaimed tone snob.

So yeah personally I'd vote for the master volume, master tone, selector or volume, volume, master tone wiring layout based on my playing styles/preferences.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I honestly feel that a good pair of PAF style humbuckers, nice filtertrons, a good P90, or a good single coil (tele, strat, dearmond/dynasonic) in an axe is a much better way to go than trying to get the P-Rail to do it all.

And when I want versatility in an axe good P90's are pretty much my go to as they sound very nice clean they are fat but clear and articulate and when they are driven they are very meaty, full, and have a nice gritty quality to them. Likewise I think a very good quality pickup of any type can handle everything in capable playing hands.

+1. Haven't tried P-Rails myself, but agree that it seems to be an overly-complicated approach, and the HB mode is just too hot for me. I have a few P-90 guitars, and to get a louder, warmer tone, I use a push-pull to link the two PU's in series (instead of parallel). That creates a virtual humbucker out of them. Between that and potential mag swaps, I think a guitar with P-90's has enough good, usable PU combinations available (four, and that's all you'll probably ever want). Another thing I do is wire my guitars for independent volume controls (switch the lugs for PU and toggle on the volume control) and that allows you to blend them in many different increments, opening all kinds of tones. On your Dot Studio, I'd make each pot a volume control for one PU, and one of those would be a push-pull for series. Simple but versatile.

There's the temptation to succomb to getting as many PU combinations as possible, but in actuality you only use a few of them. P-90's rock on their own, especially if you beef up the bridge PU with an A8/A4 mag pair. I've over-engineered guitar electronics in the past, and later thought 'Why did I spend the time and money doing that. I never use most of those options.'

 

[Aceman]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

Well, interesting info.

First of all, My number one interest is the P-90's. I'd probably use that most of the time. I suspect there is some hum reduction just based on proximity of the rail coil. Bonus, not that I mind P-90 hum.

Second, Hot Humbuckers are AOK to me. If I was using Buckers I'd probably be wanting hot anyway for rocking hard (not that P-90's don't...P-90 through recto model = :headbang

I'm not a knob-on-the-fly-guy, so I'm ok with concentric knobs. I'd rather have the ability.

What are the rails like in Single mode? Where do they fall in the scheme of Strattiness?

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I've had a set or P-Rails in my #1 guitar ever since they first came out. I've written several posts about my experience with them (you may want to search for a thread called "P-Rails, is it supposed to sound like this?"...or something like that).

I agree with some of what has been said, but disagree with a lot of it. I especially disagree with indie folk guy's statement..."the p-rails are a jack of all trades and master of none". That's easy to say, but it just isn't true!! The P-90 in the P-Rails is just about the best P-90 tone you can get. And the Rail sound (in the bridge) is terific when you want a nice twangy Tele sound. Is it as good as (or "a master of") a real Tele tone? Probably not in a DOT, but it IS very good. I agree that the series mode leaves a lot to be desired. It is too thick and heavy and not very useful (It is VERY rare when I ever use it), but the parallel setting is very sweet and chimey and rich...kinda PAFish, but better IMO.

I have to admit that in the neck P-Rail I only used the P-90 setting. It is a really good neck sound, but I just recently replaced it with the FUGLY BUCKER and that's just about the best ever neck pup...yes even better than a P-90. And that's coming from a real P-90 fan.

In a nut shell, The P-Rail in the bridge with a TS ring is a great useable pup. A jack of all trades and a master of at least two. That's at least twice as useful as any other pup. IMHO you can't do much better for what you want. You may even like the series setting for some hot and toasty slightly overdriven blues licks.

My suggestions for the best tones out of it in the bridge position are to put an A8 next to the Rail coil, an A5 next to the P-90 coil, and mount it with the Rail coil next to the bridge (to get the best twangy tones). In your DOT, you may want an A4 instead of the A5 in order to reduce some potential boominess.

If you also want one in the neck position, keep both A5 mags in it (or an A4 next to the P-90 coil) and mount it with the P-90 toward the neck (rail toward the bridge). If you want a P-90 tone in the neck, you will have the best there is. If you want a rich chimey tone, the parallel setting is very good. For me, the series or rail settings were not useful in the neck (you can, however, get some Stratish quack when you use both rails together...not nearly as good as a real Strat in #2 or #4 positions, but ok).

 

[indie folk guy]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

Well, interesting info.

First of all, My number one interest is the P-90's. I'd probably use that most of the time. I suspect there is some hum reduction just based on proximity of the rail coil. Bonus, not that I mind P-90 hum.

Second, Hot Humbuckers are AOK to me. If I was using Buckers I'd probably be wanting hot anyway for rocking hard (not that P-90's don't...P-90 through recto model = :headbang

I'm not a knob-on-the-fly-guy, so I'm ok with concentric knobs. I'd rather have the ability.

What are the rails like in Single mode? Where do they fall in the scheme of Strattiness?

I found that they are more tele-ish than strat-ish in the rail mode, obviously being a rail they are going to sound slightly different than a traditional single coil

and again I'm not saying they are bad pickups but there are better options available if you really want my opinion and love the P90 sound I would look at a pair of Lollar's Single Coil for Humbuckers I have a pair in my PRS Santana that formerly had two sets of P-Rails (that I had mag swapped in).

The difference in quality between the P90 tone of the P-Rail vs the Lollar SCFH is night and day. The Lollar's have a much more authentic P90 vibe they have a much more three dimensional, bloom, dynamic quality to them.

I mean to compare the two the Duncan P-Rail P90 mode would be like a 7.5 out of 10 and the Lollar would be a 10 out of 10. It's a very noticeable difference.

And while the rail tones where neat the only one I ever found to be useful playing with is using the rails together (neck and bridge). It gave a very cool tele-ish sound that worked great for country, rockabilly, and certain scenarios where that was the sound I wanted.

The Humbucker tones to me just were never anything useful in series mode it can be dark and over-powering for just about everything I play (I don't do metal or really hard rock) I play jazz, fusion, blues, surf, country, classic rock, indie, well just about every other style. And I have tried the Fralin Pure PAF and the stock PRS humbuckers in that guitar as a reference.

No offense to GuitarDoc because I do respect his opinion but claiming that these are really as versatile as they are marketed just isn't true. You've had them in that guitar since they've been released well what else have you tried in that particular guitar because the Fralin Pure PAF and Lollar SCFH transformed my guitar into something way more useful than all the options on the P-Rails ever where. And claiming to be a real P90 fan just doesn't even make sense I have multiple guitars with P90's but then again I've got guitars with just about every popular style of pickup and the ones I don't I'm planning to build in 2013.

So that's why I say they are a jack of all trades and master of none. To me none of the tones are the best of the best. There are good tones in the P-Rail but none of them are my end all sound.

Bottom line:
There are better P90's than the P-Rails
There are better single coils than the P-Rails
There are better humbuckers than P-Rails
The P-Rails can do all those sounds, but as I stated from actual use/experience comparing them with other pickups and other guitars I have found pickups that I prefer that make the P-Rails sound much more well mediocre.

So not to be hostile, argumentative, etc to Guitar Doc but compared to what pickups in that same guitar are the P-Rails so amazing? I'd like to know what basis of comparison you are using to put things into context.

Because if you like single coil tones I prefer just about every Antiquity, Fralin, and Lollar single coil (for tele or strat) I've used.
For P90's I think Lollar makes the best current production P90's and Fralin/Antiquity make some good ones too.
For humbuckers I think that there are a lot of pickups from DiMarzio, Duncan/Antiquity, Lollar, and Fralin that blow the P-Rail humbucker out of the water in both modern and vintage contexts.

To be honest if the Dot Studio were my guitar I would probably look at a good set of 50's styled humbuckers where you have the warm/fat qualitys with great clarity and articulation (such as Seth Lovers or if you like a little hotter Pearly Gates) or I would throw in a set of the Lollar SCFH pickups.

You can mag swap and have crazy wiring but I just think that at some point you are going to desire more/better and you are going to be going back to something simple that's what I did along with many others I have known that did the P-Rail adventure.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

Keep the discussion coming guys. Good stuff pro and con.

Remember here - I'm not looking for one Uber-tone. I'm looking for a really cool versatile guitar, possibly EXTREME versatility. The P90, Rail, and HB all in one does that. And I DO play hard rock/metal.

If I want ultra P-90 sound, I'll ay my Duncan Vintage/CUstom loaded LEs Paul. If I want HB metal sounds, I have SuperD's, Distortions, Customs, Blackouts. I rarely want Strat (or Tele). But if I do, might be nice.

The concentrics would give me the ability to really dial the pickups. But again, I'm not looking to do that in live/on the fly situations. Keep the tonal reviews coming! Good debate guys. Agree to disagree. I'm finding it very informative.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I found that they are more tele-ish than strat-ish in the rail mode, obviously being a rail they are going to sound slightly different than a traditional single coil

and again I'm not saying they are bad pickups but there are better options available if you really want my opinion and love the P90 sound I would look at a pair of Lollar's Single Coil for Humbuckers I have a pair in my PRS Santana that formerly had two sets of P-Rails (that I had mag swapped in).

The difference in quality between the P90 tone of the P-Rail vs the Lollar SCFH is night and day. The Lollar's have a much more authentic P90 vibe they have a much more three dimensional, bloom, dynamic quality to them.

I mean to compare the two the Duncan P-Rail P90 mode would be like a 7.5 out of 10 and the Lollar would be a 10 out of 10. It's a very noticeable difference.

And while the rail tones where neat the only one I ever found to be useful playing with is using the rails together (neck and bridge). It gave a very cool tele-ish sound that worked great for country, rockabilly, and certain scenarios where that was the sound I wanted.

The Humbucker tones to me just were never anything useful in series mode it can be dark and over-powering for just about everything I play (I don't do metal or really hard rock) I play jazz, fusion, blues, surf, country, classic rock, indie, well just about every other style. And I have tried the Fralin Pure PAF and the stock PRS humbuckers in that guitar as a reference.

No offense to GuitarDoc because I do respect his opinion but claiming that these are really as versatile as they are marketed just isn't true. You've had them in that guitar since they've been released well what else have you tried in that particular guitar because the Fralin Pure PAF and Lollar SCFH transformed my guitar into something way more useful than all the options on the P-Rails ever where. And claiming to be a real P90 fan just doesn't even make sense I have multiple guitars with P90's but then again I've got guitars with just about every popular style of pickup and the ones I don't I'm planning to build in 2013.

So that's why I say they are a jack of all trades and master of none. To me none of the tones are the best of the best. There are good tones in the P-Rail but none of them are my end all sound.

Bottom line:
There are better P90's than the P-Rails
There are better single coils than the P-Rails
There are better humbuckers than P-Rails
The P-Rails can do all those sounds, but as I stated from actual use/experience comparing them with other pickups and other guitars I have found pickups that I prefer that make the P-Rails sound much more well mediocre.

So not to be hostile, argumentative, etc to Guitar Doc but compared to what pickups in that same guitar are the P-Rails so amazing? I'd like to know what basis of comparison you are using to put things into context.

Because if you like single coil tones I prefer just about every Antiquity, Fralin, and Lollar single coil (for tele or strat) I've used.
For P90's I think Lollar makes the best current production P90's and Fralin/Antiquity make some good ones too.
For humbuckers I think that there are a lot of pickups from DiMarzio, Duncan/Antiquity, Lollar, and Fralin that blow the P-Rail humbucker out of the water in both modern and vintage contexts.

To be honest if the Dot Studio were my guitar I would probably look at a good set of 50's styled humbuckers where you have the warm/fat qualitys with great clarity and articulation (such as Seth Lovers or if you like a little hotter Pearly Gates) or I would throw in a set of the Lollar SCFH pickups.

You can mag swap and have crazy wiring but I just think that at some point you are going to desire more/better and you are going to be going back to something simple that's what I did along with many others I have known that did the P-Rail adventure.

To be fair, I have to admit that I've never tried the Lollar P-90 which you refer to. But I've got 30 guitars, each with different pups and most have gone through many pup changes. I have half a dozen guitars with different P-90s and most of them have been modified in some way from stock. Even though I haven't tried the Lollars, I DO have quite a bit of experience.

I think the main thing to consider is that everyone has their own idea of what is "the best tone". No disrespect at all, but to YOU the Lollar is the best. To someone else a Stock Gibson P-90 with two A5 mags is "the best" P-90 tone. Some others may feel like the Phat Cat has the best tone.

You, obviously, like the Lollar better than the P-Rail. That's fine. I may feel the same after trying a Lollar for myself. But I just don't feel the need to spend the $$$ on a Lollar because I am very pleased with the tone of the P-90 in the P-Rail, more than any other P-90 I've tried (even with mods).

And as I said, the Parallel setting is very good, and the Rail (with an A8) is great. Some players may like the series setting, but I haven't found much use for it except for a couple very heavy songs that I do. But bottom line is that "I" think that the P-90 tone is not just a "jack" but a "master". The "best available P-90"? Maybe not, but a "master" just the same. I also feel that the parallel is a "master" tone and that the Rail tone is certainly a very useable tone.

Keep in mind that these opinions are based upon having the P-Rail with an A5 next to the P-90 and an A8 next to the rail with the rail coil mounted next to the bridge in a mahogany with maple top guitar. I have other similar guitars with at least three other types of P-90s, some solid mahogany guitars with P-90s, an alder, and an ash. My opinion is that it IS a very versatile pup with great tones. I wouldn't have it in my #1 guitar if it wasn't...I've got plenty of other guitars with many different pups to choose from, but this one is my #1.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

So, BOB...

All I can say is, it's a good idea to try it yourself and see what you think. Obviously, we all have our own opinions and likes and dislikes and we all may be different than you. If "extreme versatility" is your goal, you can't do any better than the P-Rails.

 

[indie folk guy]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

So, BOB...

All I can say is, it's a good idea to try it yourself and see what you think. Obviously, we all have our own opinions and likes and dislikes and we all may be different than you. If "extreme versatility" is your goal, you can't do any better than the P-Rails.

yep

like I said I meant no disrespect or anything because I do think they are very neat pickups and I'm contemplating putting them in a project guitar I just haven't gotten the right axe for it yet. I've been tempted to build a few guitars this year so I don't know where the P-Rails set will end up could be a Jaguar style or a Tele-Gib type deal. Who knows every guitar seems to respond differently.

My set for now has an A3/A5 neck and a UOA5/UOA5 bridge (P90 coil/rail coil) with the stock setup.

So I think in my case and probably seeing what the OP is after maximum versatility without routing or drilling new holes would be to use concentric pots. I was just sharing that I would hate having them because I do like doing volume swells and using my volume knob to control amount of gain while playing.

I think the P-Rails are a good choice for what you are after but I definitely think you will be happy with the mag swaps on them.

I'd say go for a P-Rails hot set I would stick the two A5 mags on the P90 coils and the A8 coils on the rails. See how you like it and if you decide something isn't working you could try a UOA5 in the bridge on the P90 with a reg A5 on the rail. Or maybe an A3/A4 on the neck P90 and an A5 on the rail.

These are what I found to be the best mag combos but again YMMV. Tone is subjective and as was said everyone has a different "best" tone.

I just figured for the sake of discussion it would be best to share some background on how many instruments, how many pickups, etc we have tried.

Obviously it wouldn't be fair to not disclose these details as if I'm a guy with one guitar and I'm comparing a stock humbucker to a P-Rail with no frame of reference to other single coils, humbuckers, and P90s wouldn't really be a fair assessment.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

:smack:

Guys - can we make it about ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

:lmao:


Back to the P-Rails...I did not know there were Hot and Normal.

I'm thinking going Vintage may be the best way to go for me. But explain the diff between Hot and Vintage. Maybe Hot bridge, Vintage neck?

And let's talk more about the Mag variations. What exactly does the mag do for each? Hot/Vin, P-90/Rail, Neck/Bridge.

 

[indie folk guy]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

the Hot is only available as a bridge p'up the set is the regular p-rail neck and the hot p-rail bridge

The Hot model uses a different type of wire, is overwound and instead of A5 mags it has A8

it is very HOT! I didn't like the sound with the A8 magnets it's not really bad it's just I prefer the UOA5 and A5 magnets better.

Obviously what the magnets will do for the overall tone has been described at nauseum throughout the forum so I won't go into details.

 

[tubecrunch]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I would get more use out of push/pulls than concentric pots b/c I love the out of phase option and combining the p'ups in series. Never thought I would use those sounds, but wired mine that way for fun and now I actually use them.

 

[indie folk guy]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I would get more use out of push/pulls than concentric pots b/c I love the out of phase option and combining the p'ups in series. Never thought I would use those sounds, but wired mine that way for fun and now I actually use them.

very good point tubecrunch I didn't even think to mention that option

of course another option is throw in a small switch to do this but of course it would mean adding holes to the body

 

[Aceman]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I'm not averse to drilling. It's a frickin' $200 guitar. No biggie. But I don't really use out of phase sounds. Then again, as long as we are going for versatile. I


Any recommends for a good concentric? Or Push/pull? Or a concentric Push/Pull.

Hell - I might put a 5 way chicken head that does something neat on it. Talk to me!

 

[Aceman]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

I'm not averse to drilling. It's a frickin' $200 guitar. No biggie. But I don't really use out of phase sounds. Then again, as long as we are going for versatile. I


Any recommends for a good concentric? Or Push/pull? Or a concentric Push/Pull.

Hell - I might put a 5 way chicken head that does something neat on it. Talk to me!

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

Just do it. Plug in and rock out. Everyone's opinions on what the best P90, best humbucker, etc are different. It's a moving target. All four of the sounds are good/great/average/the best in the entire planet to someone.

If you're "set and forget" on the knobs then concentric are fine. For me they would be cumbersome but I like master vol/tone guitars anyway. But you could jus drill for a 3rd knob, and have two reg'lars volumes and stack the tones.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Serious P-Rails discussion

Just do it. Plug in and rock out.

You say that as if there is some other way I can ACTUALLY play?!?!?!?!

It's just a guitar I sort of have a visual AND sonic vision for...

I CAN be very particular, but I am also pretty flexible. All in all, the things said make me feel VERY optimistic about the concept. Like I said - it's about this particulalr guitar. Epi DOT Studio. Nothing fancy. However, I would like to be able to do clean blues, Jazz, Rock, whatever.

The ability to go P-90, Rail single, and Hum, and also N/N+B/B is just awesome.

Question about the wiring: Do I HAVE to go triple shot out of the gate? Or can I add those later? We are talking a semi-hollow. I don't want to do that more than once.