SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

[Fix_Metal]

Hello there guys. I'm from Italy. I really like my Custom 5 on my Charvel and I'd buy another one for my Carvin.
Unfortunatly such pickups are almost impossible to be found used. Here in Italy peeps just use SH4, SH5, sometime SH6 and SH8 as bridge pups. That said, it's almost impossible to find an used SH14.
My idea is: I get a SH5 and put in an alnico5 mag from addictionFX. I already ordered some mags from him lately.
Will I get an exact Custom 5 sounding pup this way?

 

[Kam]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Yup.

They're the exact same wind. The only difference between them is the magnet.

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Although most people say all Custom winds are the same, if you look at the tone comparisson chart, I think it's slightly different on the SH-5 compared to the SH-11 and SH-14.
You'll find 14.4K DC for the SH-11 and SH-14, but only 14.1K DC for the SH-5, meaning the SH-11 and SH-14 are slightly overwound compared to the SH-5.

But this difference is rather marginal, and I would go ahead with a SH-5 and swap the magnet for an A5.

 

[korovamilkdud]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Although most people say all Custom winds are the same, if you look at the tone comparisson chart, I think it's slightly different on the SH-5 compared to the SH-11 and SH-14.
You'll find 14.4K DC for the SH-11 and SH-14, but only 14.1K DC for the SH-5, meaning the SH-11 and SH-14 are slightly overwound compared to the SH-5.

But this difference is rather marginal, and I would go ahead with a SH-5 and swap the magnet for an A5.

Slight changes in temperature or deviations that fall with spec can create those differences. The winding design is still the same.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Although most people say all Custom winds are the same, if you look at the tone comparisson chart, I think it's slightly different on the SH-5 compared to the SH-11 and SH-14.
You'll find 14.4K DC for the SH-11 and SH-14, but only 14.1K DC for the SH-5, meaning the SH-11 and SH-14 are slightly overwound compared to the SH-5.

But this difference is rather marginal, and I would go ahead with a SH-5 and swap the magnet for an A5.

The difference in readings are marginal and can be accounted for a number of ways:

1) The number of wraps might be slightly higher or lower.
2) Ambient temperature was hotter/colder, which causes a change in resistance readings. I have put a pickup outside during below zero weather and its reading after being outside has been as much as -2k. I have also tested while potting pickups and the resistance is higher by as much as +4k.
3) The recording gear may not be precisely calibrated or the reading is within the margin of error for the equipment like +/- 2%.

So when you look at resistance reading it is best to think of them as averages across the entire line, rather than precise calibrated standards. Anything past the decimal point is pretty much meaningless and you will unlikely be unable to perceive anything smaller than +- 2k.

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Slight changes in temperature or deviations that fall with spec can create those differences. The winding design is still the same.

Can't agree with it unfortunately, unless Seymour Duncan has measured the pickups in completely different circumstances like huge temperature differences,which I think is rather not the case no? (normal measuring temperature is 25 C I think and I would expect SD to measure in constant ways)

The SH-5 is LISTED (not measured myself) as 14.1K DC, both the SH-11 and SH-14 are both listed as 14.4K DC, to me that would indicate that the SH-5 is slightly underwound compared to the other two. I am pretty sure the same wire is used on all three models, so imo, the only possibility is that the SH-11 and SH-14 are slightly overwound compared to the SH-5.

Agreed as said before the difference is marginal, but looking at the specs in the tonechart, there has to be a slight difference in wind according to the DC values.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/comparetones

 

[Kam]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Well, both the CC and the C5 were released quite some time after the regular Custom, as I recall, so it's quite understandable if the recording conditions weren't the same. And I don't think it would need to be a huge difference in temperature to cause that amount of fluctuation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind. A ceramic mag is stronger than an Alnico so it would make sense to underwind it slightly, if my meagre knowledge of pickup technology serves me well. I just find it unlikely.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Well, both the CC and the C5 were released quite some time after the regular Custom, as I recall, so it's quite understandable if the recording conditions weren't the same. And I don't think it would need to be a huge difference in temperature to cause that amount of fluctuation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind. A ceramic mag is stronger than an Alnico so it would make sense to underwind it slightly, if my meagre knowledge of pickup technology serves me well. I just find it unlikely.

If you want an easy experiment take a spare pickup and measure it at room temperature. Then put the pickup in your pocket for half an hour and measure it. I guarantee you will see at least a difference of at least .2 - .3 on your meter. Even holding it your hand for 5 minutes makes a difference that can be measure below the decimal point. Anything below the decimal point is completely imperceptible and 1-2k on a humbucker is very hard to perceive.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Here is the difference between room temperature and after 10 minutes in my pocket. Notice that the reading is different by +.2k, it doesn't take much of a temperature change to cause readings to change past the decimal point!

First reading 10:21AM. Second reading 10:31AM.

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

If you want an easy experiment take a spare pickup and measure it at room temperature. Then put the pickup in your pocket for half an hour and measure it. I guarantee you will see at least a difference of at least .2 - .3 on your meter. Even holding it your hand for 5 minutes makes a difference that can be measure below the decimal point. Anything below the decimal point is completely imperceptible and 1-2k on a humbucker is very hard to perceive.

Before you guys start to hate me (if not already), let me state that I completely agree with what you wrote above. I am completely aware that differences in temperature can cause that.
BUT, is it not so that it is a standard to measure resistance in a set temperature environment (if I am not mistaking it is 25 degrees celcius)??
If measured that way, it would be impossible to have fluctuations because of temperature is it not?

So there are two possibilities the way I look at it:
- The windings differ slightly, the SH-11 and SH-14 are slightly overwound compared to the SH-5
-All windings of all three pickups are the same, but they measured the SH-11 and SH-14 later and therefor with different measuring circumstances (mainly temperature).


I would love to know which of the two is correct! Maybe Even can clear this up??

I have to put forward that if the difference in indicated value is off because of temperature issues, I'd be a little disappionted with SD measuring methods.


PS: just mindstorming on the situation here, no disrespect meant to any posters!!

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Here is the difference between room temperature and after 10 minutes in my pocket. Notice that the reading is different by +.2k, it doesn't take much of a temperature change to cause readings to change past the decimal point!

First reading 10:21AM. Second reading 10:31AM.

Absolute nice example that proves the temperature theory.

But as said in my earlier post, I would expect SD to have a temperature controlled room to do their measurements in (meaning CONSTANT temperature), so deviations like this are out of the order.

 

[marcello252]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Hello there guys. I'm from Italy. I really like my Custom 5 on my Charvel and I'd buy another one for my Carvin.
Unfortunatly such pickups are almost impossible to be found used

I think with the custom you could have some problem with the height of the magnet, you'd better try to find a custom custom and swap the A2 for an A5.
The custom custom is easier to find (I'm from Italy too and I've bought mine used a month ago).
I've bought from addictionFX too, no problem at all here.

 

[Kam]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Hey man, no one's hating on you. We cool. :beerchug:

It is an interesting question and it's something I've never actually noticed on the site before.

Personally, since the difference caused by temperature is inaudible, I don't really mind if they standard measurements are off by a little bit. A ballpark figure is good enough for me. That's why I doubt that it's overwound...because if you can't hear a difference then why bother going to all the effort to tweak the wind and complicate the manufacturing process?

The discrepancy could be caused by using a different wind pattern (rather than intentionally overwinding) but then why would it be called a Custom? They'd probably give it a new name and market it as a whole new pickup.

Both the CC and the C5 originated here on the forum, with users replacing magnets themselves. Since it was a User Group project, I don't really see why the company would start tweaking something that A LOT of people were already very happy with. It's easier just to take the idea, buy some magnets, box it up, stick an ad in a few magazines and watch the profit roll in.

Again, no offence taken or intended. Just some decent, healthy debate. :fing2:

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Hey man, no one's hating on you. We cool. :beerchug:

It is an interesting question and it's something I've never actually noticed on the site before.

Personally, since the difference caused by temperature is inaudible, I don't really mind if they standard measurements are off by a little bit. A ballpark figure is good enough for me. That's why I doubt that it's overwound...because if you can't hear a difference then why bother going to all the effort to tweak the wind and complicate the manufacturing process?

The discrepancy could be caused by using a different wind pattern (rather than intentionally overwinding) but then why would it be called a Custom? They'd probably give it a new name and market it as a whole new pickup.

Both the CC and the C5 originated here on the forum, with users replacing magnets themselves. Since it was a User Group project, I don't really see why the company would start tweaking something that A LOT of people were already very happy with. It's easier just to take the idea, buy some magnets, box it up, stick an ad in a few magazines and watch the profit roll in.

Again, no offence taken or intended. Just some decent, healthy debate. :fing2:

Glad you see it that way Kam, would not want to start irritating you guys! :fing2:

Once again I agree with all your above statements.
If you read the pickup description of the SH-11 and SH-14 it also states it's a Custom with a different magnet.

So chances are very big that it was indeed a temperature influenced reading getting involved. But as said before, I am a little disappionted in SD, because normaly you do the readings in temp. controlled rooms, can't have been the case here, so not realy measured according "the book". I have to admit I expected SD to pay attention to these "standards".
I would have also expected them to notice that their new measurements towards the SH-11 and SH-14 were off a little, and that that had to do with temperature issues, and to put an exact number in the tables as opposed to one influenced by temperatures differences.

Off course it is only a detail, but still, I am a little let down by the way SD seems to measure their official values. (I admit it, I am a grumpy person :rant

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Just look at the history of the Custom 5. Guys around here (SDUGF) weren't completely satisifed with the Custom, so they swapped the magnet. It gets a lot of rave reviews, SD takes notice and moves it into production. End of story. The Custom 5 is just a Custom with a mag swap.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

I'm starting to think that my favorite version is the Custom 5 with a fully charged roughcast A5 magnet. It's right in between a polished A5 and unoriented roughcast A5 (UOA5). I'm splitting hairs here, but out of all the magnets I've tried....a nice strong roughcast A5 sounded best.

It's also the same magnet that many Gibson pickups have come with.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Glad you see it that way Kam, would not want to start irritating you guys!

No flames intended. I just know that once the rumor mill starts turning around here people tend to jump on the bandwagon. Better to clear up any doubt early on.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Could the power of the ceramic magnet cause the fluctuation in the reading of the Custom? I am not an electrical guy...far from it. Just wondering.

 

[Kam]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Could the power of the ceramic magnet cause the fluctuation in the reading of the Custom? I am not an electrical guy...far from it. Just wondering.

I'm not an electrical guy either so someone else should probably chime in if I'm way off the mark but as far as I know... no, it won't. The resistance reading only measures just that; the resistance of the wire. I'm pretty sure you'd get the exact same reading even if the magnet wasn't in the pup at all.

 

[The JEM Ghost]

Re: SH5 Custom -> SH14 Custom 5 = Just mag swap?

Hey Jeff H ;-)

The magnet in the pickup should not influence the DC value at all, as far as I know of, you can take the magnet out of a pickup and it should still read the very same DC (when measured under same circumstances of course, let's say a temperature/humidity controlled room).
When the SH-5 , SH-11 and SH-14 would be measured in such a room, they should give about exact DC values when having exact windings(concidered production tolerance,but would not be +- 0.3K DC on a Duncan).
That's why I am a bit disturbed about SD putting slightly different values in their official tables, it just raises confusion and questions if it is the same wind I think.

I think they should correct it, if it is the same wind, they should put up the exact same value in my opinion, so there is no doubt about the fact the windings are exact on all three humbuckers.

I can surely understand idsnowdog's concern about rumors spreading through threads, where facts can get mangled easy, and that's exaclty why I think SD should correct it and make the values the same (whichever is correct under a 25 degrees celcius measurement).

Thumbs up for the understanding and attitude guys!! Much appreciated, I feared you guys might started hating me! ;-)