Shot myself in the foot today

[Coma]

I'm old school. I like tubes and stompboxes.

I've been playing amp sims as far back as the early 2000s, when the Line6 Guitarport came out, but it's always been for convenience rather than pleasure. Got myself a 100w all tube head and two 4x12s sometime around 2013 and never looked back. Slowly built a pedal board that grew and grew (as they do) until I landed in something that suits my needs.

But lugging all that stuff back and forth for gigs suuuuucks. So I caved, got a smaller 50 watt head and a MultiFX with amp sims and midi. It doesn't sound as good as my real amps, and the effects aren't as good as the ones on my board. Buuuuut... It's convenient. It takes up virtually no space. It can control the channel switching on my amp. It doesn't have a hundred little connections that take hours to sift through when something craps out. Whatever. At least the amp is still real. Still tubes. I'll survive. I'm old school.

Today my drummer texts me and asks if I can't bring the MultiFX to band practice. We've been recording quick and dirty demos for our next album and bleed from my cabs into his drum mics is causing him headaches. He wants to see if he can just get a signal straight from the FX unit. Sure, why not? He's doing all the hard work anyway. I let him know it probably won't sound anywhere near as good as the real thing, but he doesn't mind. It's a demo. It just has to sound... passable.

Hook it up. FX unit into solid state poweramp and cab on my end. Straight into his sound card and onto DAW and cab sim on his part.

You guys...

We have never sounded this good. Never. It's tight, it's articulate. Me, bassist, drummer, singer - nobody is getting drowned out. For the first time in 14 years of playing together in a bunch of different rehearsal spaces, everyone can hear everyone.

But there's no oomph. The cab isn't moving air. I can't feel my pant legs vibrating.

But we sound good. Really good. Everyone hears it. They don't want the 100w plugged in. They want me to keep using the MultiFX.

I'm old school. I like tubes.

FML.

 

[Mincer]

You can move air with an effects unit into a good power amp and cab, though.

 

[Sam SG]

Im old school too. Been playing tube amps since I was 19.
I dont own an FX processor or modeler or plug ins.
What I do is I have a 100w Marshall 1/2 stack for larger stages/ gigs
And a couple small 1x12 Tube combos for small stages.
The key in a live setting is by any means possible set your level equal to the acoustic drum kit.
If noone can hear whats going on when playing as a group that means the band is not balanced. Ideally you should be able to hear everyone on stage.
Ive even layed 4x12 cabs on thier back and fired at the celing to keep FOH in control. Or fired amps at a stage wall.
When recording the amps should be isolated. Usually in a seperate room in a studio.
But even in a "live" demo made at home situation id still put the amp in another room and mic it back to isolate from other mics. When thats not an option Ive even gone as far as placing a folding chair backward a couple feet infront of my amp( with speaker miced) and draped moving blankets over the whole mess( leaving air space underneith) in the name of isolation for a live in the room type demo.
Im not switching from tubes anytime soon. I have an ammo can full of 12ax7s and a pile of powertubes for backups and do my own amp work. Its just you gotta harness the beast.
Worry more about the tone than how much air its pushing. Its possible( without hearing it)that the oomph you describe is lowend that is competing with the bassists frequency range causeing a blur effect in the stage mix. You gotta carve your own frequency range within the mix of the band. Possible thats why they say they prefer the sound of your procesor and that the mix is cleaner.
Ramble over...carry on

 

[marcello252]

I'm old school, no surprise, I'm 56 at the moment, although in pretty good shape.
I think I tried almost everything, from fender 85 to 100w jcm800, 900, plexi, boogie... name one I probably had or tried in a process of progressively downsizing, then I lived through various digital transformation, from line6 pod to modern modeller.
In the end everything has its space: if I'm live nothing, I mean nothing, can beat my little princeton with its 12" speaker, digital can be heard better but the feeling is 0 to me, I just can't play confortable, if I'm recording it's all digital, nothing can sound as good unless you spend hours and hours of miic positioning etc etc...
So it's always a matter of balance and giveandtake, but you can't compromise on feeling, I guess

 

[GuitarStv]

If it sounds good . . . it is.

 

[ehdwuld]

I told my buddy back in 2000
Its all going digital
No more amps on stages

Everything in ear
Front of house ready

No mic'd cabs

And here we are

None of that is true
Habits and traditions are hard to break


I have used a modeling pedal into a powered PA for almost 2 decades

During that time I have bought tube amps
And solid state amps
And more modeling pedals

It doesn't end

GAS

the delusion of marketing
Maybe that next piece will be it

But it ain't
Back to square one

 

[Coma]

Follow-up: I have an MXR 10-band EQ. I'll bring that to rehearsal and see if I can tighten up the sound of my tube rig. Should I put it before or after the preamp?

 

[GuitarStv]

Follow-up: I have an MXR 10-band EQ. I'll bring that to rehearsal and see if I can tighten up the sound of my tube rig. Should I put it before or after the preamp?

Try both, but my vote goes to after.

Before the preamp is kinda like changing guitars when you step on the pedal. You can make overly bassy pickups sound bright or whatever. After the preamp lets you make little adjustments to better fit your final sound with the band though. It's more powerful, and you can notch away problem frequencies very easily. Easier to screw up though.

 

[Sam SG]

Another trick to try.
Not sure were you run your gain. But try backing down your amps gain to like 3-4 ish...think Malcom Young AcDc.Gets rid off flabby compression. Then use the EQ out front as a boost. Sculpt the tone to taste.
But try setting flat give the 800hz a 3db goose 200hz a 3db cut boost level like 5-6db Just for start.
Thats a good classic rock setting.
But spend some serious time with the EQ. Slight adjustments go a long way. Easy to go from BAD to GOOD to WORSE. LOL So take your time.
If your doing heavier stuff may need more sculpting may want to stack a drive with the EQ.work in small adjustment increments. Two pedals set subtle will be a big diff.
Weird how a crunchy marshall with a boost sounds tighter than just using the amps gain.

 

[Coma]

Another trick to try.
Not sure were you run your gain. But try backing down your amps gain to like 3-4 ish...think Malcom Young AcDc.Gets rid off flabby compression. Then use the EQ out front as a boost. Sculpt the tone to taste.
But try setting flat give the 800hz a 3db goose 200hz a 3db cut boost level like 5-6db Just for start.
Thats a good classic rock setting.
But spend some serious time with the EQ. Slight adjustments go a long way. Easy to go from BAD to GOOD to WORSE. LOL So take your time.
If your doing heavier stuff may need more sculpting may want to stack a drive with the EQ.work in small adjustment increments. Two pedals set subtle will be a big diff.
Weird how a crunchy marshall with a boost sounds tighter than just using the amps gain.

That's good info. I don't use drives at all though. I play death/thrash and rely entirely on the amp for gain. To be perfectly frank, I have never heard anyone do an A/B comparison of a high gain amp with and without a boost in front and not thought it sounded way worse boosted.

I do keep a Mooer Yellow Comp up front to bring back some of the high end that gets lost to tone suck throughout my pedal board.

 

[jeremy]

ewww

modelers usually have "optimized" tone for recording or foh mixing from my experience. they can sound very good, i dont like the way they feel and dont think they do the medium dirty tones i use most very well. i think the clean and high gain sounds are usually pretty good on the best modern units.

as far as getting your tube amp to sit in the mix better, i agree with stv, after preamp is better for what you are going for. if you can, look at the frequency response of your recorded tracks. then look at what your tube amp is giving you and use the multifx track as the template.

what amp are you using? what is this seemingly large pedal board? what cabs/speakers? theres a lot to tweak

 

[Sam SG]

If your playing thrash check out Slayers rig run down. Gary Holt uses a Tube Screamer to tighten the bottom end.
In the 80s Scott Ian used a TC Electronic distortion into his 4210 JCM 800 combo.

 

[Coma]

ewww

modelers usually have "optimized" tone for recording or foh mixing from my experience. they can sound very good, i dont like the way they feel and dont think they do the medium dirty tones i use most very well. i think the clean and high gain sounds are usually pretty good on the best modern units.

as far as getting your tube amp to sit in the mix better, i agree with stv, after preamp is better for what you are going for. if you can, look at the frequency response of your recorded tracks. then look at what your tube amp is giving you and use the multifx track as the template.

what amp are you using? what is this seemingly large pedal board? what cabs/speakers? theres a lot to tweak

Oh boy, let's see. Main amp is an EVH 100w 6L6.

Off the top of my head, I'm not entirely sure about the pedal order, but: Wah > Comp > Gate > PREAMP > Tremolo > Flanger > Boost > Gate > Delay > Reverb > Mimiq > POWERAMPS > CABS

There is only one gate but it's connected using the four cable method, Boss NS2.

Mimiq splits the signal in two, one goes back to the main poweramp, into an EVH 4×12 and the other into a solid state poweramp, into an Orange 4×12.

 

[kjrocks]

Same thing happened to me a few years back. I picked up a Spider V to use at a practice space and it has turned into my main amp. I've gigged inside and outside, loud drummers, no drummers. At first I couldn't imagine nor running tubes and my pedal board. I left the board in front of it but now I hardly use a pedal on it and don't even take them on a gig. Haven't used my Rivera for years other than the occasional noodling in my practice room.

 

[Caffeinated]

IIRC the classic Metallica tone once they'd moved to Mesas included a mid scoop in front of the preamp and then put a chunk of it back in before the power amp. I think the idea was to keep the preamp tight but retain enough thump. I've never actually tried that but it makes sense. EQ in the loop is a relatively new idea to me, I'm oldskool enough that I've tended to stick to putting time effects only in the loop and anything levelly in front. Certainly I can do a lot with a Pentatone EQ in the loop of my 2205 though.

Over the years I've gotten to have a lighter hand with my settings too. Time was I'd just dime everything and work from there. Now I tend to begin with EQ and gain around 6's, volume low and build from there. I also recently started putting a Turbo Rat in front with the drive about 2/3 and level low as a solo boost. It's a great sound for me.

Back on the band dynamic, it's a classic problem though. Guitar players do tend to like a lot of volume. It feels good. It can enable stuff like feedback arcs that you can't quite get any other way. It also causes exactly the sort of problems OP is having where the rest of the band can't hear what they're doing. There are a few people in here already that are saying the same as I'm going to. Volume has it's place and that isn't everywhere. Maybe you need to use the quiet rig your drummer likes when you aren't places that can accommodate the full stack.

 

[Coma]

IIRC the classic Metallica tone once they'd moved to Mesas included a mid scoop in front of the preamp and then put a chunk of it back in before the power amp. I think the idea was to keep the preamp tight but retain enough thump. I've never actually tried that but it makes sense. EQ in the loop is a relatively new idea to me, I'm oldskool enough that I've tended to stick to putting time effects only in the loop and anything levelly in front. Certainly I can do a lot with a Pentatone EQ in the loop of my 2205 though.

Over the years I've gotten to have a lighter hand with my settings too. Time was I'd just dime everything and work from there. Now I tend to begin with EQ and gain around 6's, volume low and build from there. I also recently started putting a Turbo Rat in front with the drive about 2/3 and level low as a solo boost. It's a great sound for me.

Back on the band dynamic, it's a classic problem though. Guitar players do tend to like a lot of volume. It feels good. It can enable stuff like feedback arcs that you can't quite get any other way. It also causes exactly the sort of problems OP is having where the rest of the band can't hear what they're doing. There are a few people in here already that are saying the same as I'm going to. Volume has it's place and that isn't everywhere. Maybe you need to use the quiet rig your drummer likes when you aren't places that can accommodate the full stack.

Actually, I'm the one who keeps trying to turn us down. It's always been a case of leveling the guitar and bass against the drum kit. So finding the balance where everything can be heard passably has always been a bit of a chore, but we usually get there. This was the first time we've had something akin to clarity as opposed to just a wall of sound, though.

We also only play places where a half stack isn't an issue, this is really more of a rehearsal spaces situation.

 

[Caffeinated]

Actually, I'm the one who keeps trying to turn us down. It's always been a case of leveling the guitar and bass against the drum kit. So finding the balance where everything can be heard passably has always been a bit of a chore, but we usually get there. This was the first time we've had something akin to clarity as opposed to just a wall of sound, though.

We also only play places where a half stack isn't an issue, this is really more of a rehearsal spaces situation.

Fair,

In that case personally I'd tend to go with the band pleasing rig for practice and half stack for gigs - and be grateful for the easier transport! .

 

[Securb]

I feel your pain. My drummer is very loud, and depending on whether he ate his Wheaties that morning, it can be a battle of volumes. I could definitely go modeler only at practice if it is working. My only caveat for the band would be to use the half stack at practice leading up to gigs to make sure everything was kosher for the live show.

 

[Mincer]

As my drummer plays longer into the night, he gets louder. But his 'louder' isn't very loud by drummer standards. I can have my Deluxe on 4 (still pretty clean) and it can be heard above him.

 

[Coma]

As my drummer plays longer into the night, he gets louder. But his 'louder' isn't very loud by drummer standards. I can have my Deluxe on 4 (still pretty clean) and it can be heard above him.

The funny thing is when we auditioned him way back when, he played super softly and we thought there's no way we can make this work.