Some thoughts on scatterwinding

[richard parker]

Having had my Bare Knuckle Rebel Yells for a couple of months, several rehearsal and one gig and also having done a lot of reading on the BK forum I would like to offer some observations:

All BK pups (and possible all quality scatterwound pups) share some common traits which are expanded tonal range, clearer top end end, greater definition and string seperation and the ability to retain these characteristics under humungous amounts of gain. Tim Mills (head honcho) says that this is due to the scatter winding.

I've read a number of people dismiss the notion of scatter winding as snake oil but this is just not true.

Try a BK against your favourite machine wound pup and you will hear the difference IMMEDIATELY.

Some have speculated that the Rebel Yell is BKs answer to the JB. I don't agree but I have been able to make a direct comparison with the JB I've had in my old SG for years. The most obvious difference is clarity. With the same gain settings on my amp the RY will let you hear every note in a chord at a point where the JB has become muddy and undefined. Keep adding gain and the RY will continue to produce lovely big chords while the JB turns into an ugly undefined mess. I used to think that the messiness of the JB was a limitation of the gain structure of my amp but I now know that this is not the case.

That's not to say that everyone LIKES these characteristics. Some guys on the BK forum have said that they find the BKs TOO clean.

Another obvious difference is expanded top end. It took me quite a few height adjustments to tame these pups but I'm now rewarded with a lovely bite that I haven't heard in a bucker in years.

I'm very pleased with these pups and I don't think I'll be thinking about buying another machine wound bucker.

If you haven't tried a BK or any other scatterwound pup you really owe it to yourself to try one (or two). After all, we all want the best tones we can get.

 

[Andrew Lamprecht]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Nice! I've played few scatterwound pups and there is definitely a difference. I still regret selling my scatterwound 59!

 

[richard parker]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Andrew, who scatterwound your 59 ? I'm assuming it wasn't an SD as he has stated categorically that humbuckers should not be scatterwound.

 

[Andrew Lamprecht]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Andrew, who scatterwound your 59 ? I'm assuming it wasn't an SD as he has stated categorically that humbuckers should not be scatterwound.

David Loperena here on the forum. His screen name is Poor Man. I have gotten a few pickups from him. They turned out really well and were cheaper than new SDs.

 

[SamusChief]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

What is scatterwinding, anyway?

 

[jeremy]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

laying the wire down on a bobbin in a random pattern

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

I wonder how much is because of the winding pattern and how much is offset coils though. My understanding is that BK's are all wound slightly mismatched, as are most "boutique" pickups. This contributes to the "special 3D feature" people hear in them too, maybe moreso than the winding pattern.

 

[richard parker]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Here's Tim Mills of BK on the subject:

Scatter-winding can only truly be done by hand and represents a high degree of skill by the person winding the coil. Although time consuming, it has many advantages over conventional machine winding and mass-production, not least the far superior tone and dynamics produced. We deliberately scatter the wire as we build up the windings of the coils so the wire isn't as even turn on turn, layer on layer, as with the more uniform wind of an automated machine with pre-tensioning. This lowers the distributed capacitance that exists between the turns of wire. Lower capacitance means improved high-end clarity, the resonant peak increases slightly and frequency response is greatly extended. The tension of the wire is also varied as it moves through the operator's fingers reflecting the ability to control the tension within the coil by the person winding the pickup. The result is a clearer, more open tone that has the impression of being louder purely by the amount of extra detail and dynamics present.

 

[oilpit]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Dude...you really need to get over this whole scatterwinding thing.

Yes, it affects the tone of the pickup, yes it will make the pickup clearer/more dynamic.
But you seem to thinkk that it has a drastic affect on the EQ of a pickup which simply is not true.

Pole pieces, wind, magnet and wire gauge all have a MUCH bigger affect on the tone of a pickup to the point where if you add all those things up, scatterwinding will be one of the smallest contributing factors of the tone.

 

[richard parker]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Oilpit, look at my first post in this thread, Where do I say that scatterwinding has a drastic effect on EQ other than to say that you get more top end ? I think the most noticable difference is in clarity.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

I think Tim Mills is right. And Mr. Oil, certainly materials (especially the mag and metal parts) are a huge factor in the basic tone, but they have very little effect on clarity and string separation. That's where scatter comes in. No other aspect of a pickup's design/construction has near as much effect on 3D'ing a pickup as a proper scatter wind. At least that's certainly been my experience.

 

[Kam]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

I think Tim Mills is right. And Mr. Oil, certainly materials (especially the mag and metal parts) are a huge factor in the basic tone, but they have very little effect on clarity and string separation. That's where scatter comes in. No other aspect of a pickup's design/construction has near as much effect on 3D'ing a pickup as a proper scatter wind. At least that's certainly been my experience.

What's your opinion on the scatter wind Vs mismatched coil thing? Which do you think has the most effect on clarity and string seperation?

 

[MattPete]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Machines can scatterwind:

http://www.gundrymedia.typepad.com/

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

What's your opinion on the scatter wind Vs mismatched coil thing? Which do you think has the most effect on clarity and string seperation?

Mismatching coils will add more sizzle and presence and you need more than a "slight" mismatch to get that sizzle. 0.1 to 0.2k just won't cut it. But it's the scatter is what gets the 3D thing.

And yes, MattPete, machines can scatterwind. If you're willing to buy or design a machine that will let you program a true scatter pattern, and maybe even vary the tension a bit, there's no reason it couldn't work. The wire doesn't care how it gets laid in X pattern with Y tension, it will perform the same as if it was wrapped by hand.

 

[formula73]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

I've never heard a better set of pickups than a set I had wound by RD in Ireland. The mismatch is about 2k and the scatter...well...I don't rightly know, but they scatterwind everything. They're so clear and unforgiving that, while they stick around, they don't get a lot of play. I suppose if all I did was hit a Big E through my uberboutiquemarshallclone and post on TGP, I'd be psyched, but I figure I know just enough about playing guitar to get me in trouble. I think, with these, I bit off more than I can chew.

 

[eviltobz]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

I wonder how much is because of the winding pattern and how much is offset coils though. My understanding is that BK's are all wound slightly mismatched, as are most "boutique" pickups. This contributes to the "special 3D feature" people hear in them too, maybe moreso than the winding pattern.

They state on the site that they do both symetrical and asymetrical winds on pups. The handwoundness will no doubt mean a larger variation in production tolerances between similar coils than machine wound ones, but it'll still only be a subtle difference on their symetrical winds. And I'd guess that they'll tend to make batches of specific specs and then choose which ones they pair together when not working on custom jobs.

 

[richard parker]

Re: Some thoughts on scatterwinding

Z, thanks for your comments. 3D is the right description or, as others have said, like taking a blanket off your speakers. If you apppreciate the added clarity and definition you will not want to go back to machine wounds.