Someone explain NOS tubes to me
- Thread starter Aden
- Start date
Christobevii3
New member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
They are New old Stock. They are basically higher quality ones made in the past that are no longer made. They were used in industrial situations constantly and thus required to be made to higher standards.
They are New old Stock. They are basically higher quality ones made in the past that are no longer made. They were used in industrial situations constantly and thus required to be made to higher standards.
wahwah
GumbyLoveologist
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
The "Golden Era" of tube manufacture was between 1940 and 1970. Throughout that time, tubes were used in a wide variety of equipment and were therefore in high demand. There were major manufacturers and full scale factories in the US, UK, Western Europe, Japan and Australia. Companies such as RCA, General Electric, Sylvania, Ken Rad and Tung Sol in the US, Mullard and Brimar in the UK, and Telefunken, Philips, Amperex, Siemens and Valvo in Europe made the best tubes ever constructed. At that time, there was also a major tube plant in St Petersburgh, Russia, but their tubes were always considered inferior to their Western counterparts.
By the 70's, transistor technology was making tubes obsolete, and the tube factories eventually closed down, many of them destroying their machinery in the belief that the demand for tubes had ended for good. Despite the attempts of amplifier manufacturers to employ transistor technology in their designs, they failed to produce amps which sounded as good as those built around the then generally obsolete tube technology. Due to their less advanced technological standards, China and several Eastern European countries continued to use tube technology in military and some domestic equipment. In the absence of the Western factories, the inferior Russian, Chinese, Yugoslavian and Czechoslovakian factories became the only available source of tubes for the remaining market in the west, audiophiles and guitarists. Groove Tubes were the first company to take advantage of the situation, buying up tubes from these factories, rebranding them, sorting out the horribly low quality control and marketing the "best of" these inferior tubes to the Western markets at ludicrously inflated prices. They were able to get away with this due to the lack of competition.
As Christobevii3 pointed out, NOS stands for "New Old Stock," meaning old tubes, preferably from one of the major manufacturers of the Golden Era, which have never been used. However, tube dealers are responsible for setting the ridiculous prices of the more popular brands and models. eBay has opened up a far more reasonable picture of the actual worth of these tubes in today's market, and many sellers are offering tubes which are not NOS, but what is referred to as "good used," meaning that they are classic tubes from the best manufactureres, which may have been slightly used, leaving them with most of their useful life intact. In many cases, these tubes are the best value for money, since their prices are similar to current production tubes, but their construction, tone and longevity are superior.
There's a lot of hype about NOS. But if you had the option to pay $100 for a NOS tube, or $25 for the same tube with 90% of its life left, you can do the maths for yourself. Many people are scared of eBay, and that's a good thing, because it makes it easier for those who know what they are looking for, what questions to ask a seller, and how to find the good tubes, to get excellent value for the best tubes ever made, rather than being forced to accept the poor quality control, limited longevity and inferior tone of current production tubes. There are some tube types, like the EL34/6CA7 for example, for which the old stock of the best brands has all but disappeared, and the prices for those remaining are prohibitive, in which case it is a matter of finding the best alternative of the current production stock. But in the case of preamp tubes like the 12AX7, there are still many of these available from many sources at reasonable prices, which makes experimenting with them in our amps possible.
Cheers......................wahwah
The "Golden Era" of tube manufacture was between 1940 and 1970. Throughout that time, tubes were used in a wide variety of equipment and were therefore in high demand. There were major manufacturers and full scale factories in the US, UK, Western Europe, Japan and Australia. Companies such as RCA, General Electric, Sylvania, Ken Rad and Tung Sol in the US, Mullard and Brimar in the UK, and Telefunken, Philips, Amperex, Siemens and Valvo in Europe made the best tubes ever constructed. At that time, there was also a major tube plant in St Petersburgh, Russia, but their tubes were always considered inferior to their Western counterparts.
By the 70's, transistor technology was making tubes obsolete, and the tube factories eventually closed down, many of them destroying their machinery in the belief that the demand for tubes had ended for good. Despite the attempts of amplifier manufacturers to employ transistor technology in their designs, they failed to produce amps which sounded as good as those built around the then generally obsolete tube technology. Due to their less advanced technological standards, China and several Eastern European countries continued to use tube technology in military and some domestic equipment. In the absence of the Western factories, the inferior Russian, Chinese, Yugoslavian and Czechoslovakian factories became the only available source of tubes for the remaining market in the west, audiophiles and guitarists. Groove Tubes were the first company to take advantage of the situation, buying up tubes from these factories, rebranding them, sorting out the horribly low quality control and marketing the "best of" these inferior tubes to the Western markets at ludicrously inflated prices. They were able to get away with this due to the lack of competition.
As Christobevii3 pointed out, NOS stands for "New Old Stock," meaning old tubes, preferably from one of the major manufacturers of the Golden Era, which have never been used. However, tube dealers are responsible for setting the ridiculous prices of the more popular brands and models. eBay has opened up a far more reasonable picture of the actual worth of these tubes in today's market, and many sellers are offering tubes which are not NOS, but what is referred to as "good used," meaning that they are classic tubes from the best manufactureres, which may have been slightly used, leaving them with most of their useful life intact. In many cases, these tubes are the best value for money, since their prices are similar to current production tubes, but their construction, tone and longevity are superior.
There's a lot of hype about NOS. But if you had the option to pay $100 for a NOS tube, or $25 for the same tube with 90% of its life left, you can do the maths for yourself. Many people are scared of eBay, and that's a good thing, because it makes it easier for those who know what they are looking for, what questions to ask a seller, and how to find the good tubes, to get excellent value for the best tubes ever made, rather than being forced to accept the poor quality control, limited longevity and inferior tone of current production tubes. There are some tube types, like the EL34/6CA7 for example, for which the old stock of the best brands has all but disappeared, and the prices for those remaining are prohibitive, in which case it is a matter of finding the best alternative of the current production stock. But in the case of preamp tubes like the 12AX7, there are still many of these available from many sources at reasonable prices, which makes experimenting with them in our amps possible.
Cheers......................wahwah
rashayritto
Off-Topic Lurker
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
wow. i fell like every post by wahwah expands my knowledge
wow. i fell like every post by wahwah expands my knowledge
Ascension
Well-known member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
Dead on Wah Wah!! I have found that the currrent production tubes do perform well in SOME of the current amps because manufacturers are designing the stuff around the inferior new production tubes. My JCM 2000 TSL 60 Marshall for example LOVES the 80's production Shunghang 12AX7's but I have real NOS Mullards in my Fender Prosonic.
NOS tubes with normally last MUCH MUCH longer in particular in the poweramp.
Dead on Wah Wah!! I have found that the currrent production tubes do perform well in SOME of the current amps because manufacturers are designing the stuff around the inferior new production tubes. My JCM 2000 TSL 60 Marshall for example LOVES the 80's production Shunghang 12AX7's but I have real NOS Mullards in my Fender Prosonic.
NOS tubes with normally last MUCH MUCH longer in particular in the poweramp.
wahwah
GumbyLoveologist
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
That's a very good point Ascension, there are definitely modern amps designed around current production tubes that are unlikely to benefit from vintage tubes. I also believe that we need to support the new tube manufacturers by buying their tubes, either for spares or for certain gigging conditions, whatever suits. I think the current manufacturers are really trying to supply us with what we need to the best of their abilities. But I also like the idea of sharing this info with my forum buddies here, because I'd rather see some of those classic old tubes in guitar players rigs than sitting in some collectors glass display case! I've got SED EL34's in one of my amps, and I will continue to support the St Petersburgh factory because they're probably the best made and sweetest sounding EL34's, for my application, on the planet. As much as I love vintage tubes, I'm not about to buy a quad of Mullard EL34's, even if I could find them!
Mullards would be smokin' in that Prosonic, that's one of the few Fender amps that would benfit from some of that British mid push! I can hear it in my head....nice.
Cheers.........................wahwah
That's a very good point Ascension, there are definitely modern amps designed around current production tubes that are unlikely to benefit from vintage tubes. I also believe that we need to support the new tube manufacturers by buying their tubes, either for spares or for certain gigging conditions, whatever suits. I think the current manufacturers are really trying to supply us with what we need to the best of their abilities. But I also like the idea of sharing this info with my forum buddies here, because I'd rather see some of those classic old tubes in guitar players rigs than sitting in some collectors glass display case! I've got SED EL34's in one of my amps, and I will continue to support the St Petersburgh factory because they're probably the best made and sweetest sounding EL34's, for my application, on the planet. As much as I love vintage tubes, I'm not about to buy a quad of Mullard EL34's, even if I could find them!
Mullards would be smokin' in that Prosonic, that's one of the few Fender amps that would benfit from some of that British mid push! I can hear it in my head....nice.
Cheers.........................wahwah
LunaticFringe
New member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
Why the heck doesn't someone build a factory to make tubes like they were made in the past? There's gotta be a market for it. If someone set up shop to make some of the nicer pedals out there why not a small one for tubes?
Why the heck doesn't someone build a factory to make tubes like they were made in the past? There's gotta be a market for it. If someone set up shop to make some of the nicer pedals out there why not a small one for tubes?
kmcguitars
GuitarArtologist
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
It would be cost prohibitive to manufacture tubes in the western world,Not to mention strick OSHA and environmental standard that would have to be followed. We can't even seem to make Sneakers in this country anymore.:17
and look how much a pair of Air Jordan's will set you back)
mg: As WAH WAH pointed out, The newer high gain etc. amps are designed to work from new production tubes. It's the older amps of the golden era that benefit from NOS. So don't go putting a Quad of NOS Mullard EL-34's in your TSL !!:thumbsdow Back in 1988 there was a little sniplet in guitar player mag. That stated in 15 to 20 years the NOS tube stock would be gone!! Me and my buddy would go out on garbage night a raid any tube device we could find and stock up. My stash is now depleted. It was not until 91' when the cold war ended, That new production tubes became available from behind the Iron Curtain. Most where lame for audio application, But they have been getting better now they have a market for audio tubes.
It would be cost prohibitive to manufacture tubes in the western world,Not to mention strick OSHA and environmental standard that would have to be followed. We can't even seem to make Sneakers in this country anymore.:17
and look how much a pair of Air Jordan's will set you back)mg: As WAH WAH pointed out, The newer high gain etc. amps are designed to work from new production tubes. It's the older amps of the golden era that benefit from NOS. So don't go putting a Quad of NOS Mullard EL-34's in your TSL !!:thumbsdow Back in 1988 there was a little sniplet in guitar player mag. That stated in 15 to 20 years the NOS tube stock would be gone!! Me and my buddy would go out on garbage night a raid any tube device we could find and stock up. My stash is now depleted. It was not until 91' when the cold war ended, That new production tubes became available from behind the Iron Curtain. Most where lame for audio application, But they have been getting better now they have a market for audio tubes.
johnny blackwater
New member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
Thankfully I will never have to buy a new tube, I had the tremendous fortune to buy several large boxes (about 10,000 tubes) of NOS tubes at an estate sale for $200.00, only about 2,000 of them were audio tubes, including 15 western electric 300b power tubes from the early `50s , which I sold for $450.00 apiece! you might think that was a great sale, but I regret it greatly , as they are selling for between $1300.00 to $1600.00 each for matched pairs! ( crazy Japanese audiophiles) needless to say, I won`t sell anymore. I had a box of 100 or so used tubes with the lot which I am using in my amps now. I don`t care what anyone says, there is no comparison between these and new tubes, there may be only one out of 10,000 sovtek or JJ 12ax7`s that hold a candle to my USED Telefunken smooth plate ECC803s red tips, but I doubt it. I`ve got them in my Mesa MKIIc+ along with a pair of RCA black plate 6l6gc`s (w/ silvertone lables). I`ve got my JMP 2204 MV loaded with long plate Mullard ECC83`s and I have been switching between Mullard XF1 EL34`s and GE big bottle 6CA7 power tubes, Heaven!!
Thankfully I will never have to buy a new tube, I had the tremendous fortune to buy several large boxes (about 10,000 tubes) of NOS tubes at an estate sale for $200.00, only about 2,000 of them were audio tubes, including 15 western electric 300b power tubes from the early `50s , which I sold for $450.00 apiece! you might think that was a great sale, but I regret it greatly , as they are selling for between $1300.00 to $1600.00 each for matched pairs! ( crazy Japanese audiophiles) needless to say, I won`t sell anymore. I had a box of 100 or so used tubes with the lot which I am using in my amps now. I don`t care what anyone says, there is no comparison between these and new tubes, there may be only one out of 10,000 sovtek or JJ 12ax7`s that hold a candle to my USED Telefunken smooth plate ECC803s red tips, but I doubt it. I`ve got them in my Mesa MKIIc+ along with a pair of RCA black plate 6l6gc`s (w/ silvertone lables). I`ve got my JMP 2204 MV loaded with long plate Mullard ECC83`s and I have been switching between Mullard XF1 EL34`s and GE big bottle 6CA7 power tubes, Heaven!!
Last edited:
Fender_Punk
BerriesAndCreamologist
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
If these tubes are so great, why doesn't JJ or GT try to replicate them? I'm sure their sales would go up.
If these tubes are so great, why doesn't JJ or GT try to replicate them? I'm sure their sales would go up.
johnny blackwater
New member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
They are trying their best, the raw materials are not the same, the original tooling is gone, the people with the old trade secrets/knowledge base are dead or dying (they were in their `50s in the 1950`s) the `50s were the Golden Age of Industrial engineering. people back then had careers, now we only have jobs.
Last edited:
wahwah
GumbyLoveologist
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
You asked the same question and I answered it in this thread https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=111971&page=2
johnny blackwater's answer is also spot on.
Cheers...................wahwah
You asked the same question and I answered it in this thread https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=111971&page=2
johnny blackwater's answer is also spot on.
Cheers...................wahwah
kmcguitars
GuitarArtologist
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
According to Bob from Eurotubes he sacrificed a prized set of his NOS KT-77's So the people at JJ could reverse engineer them. Don't know how close they got? There are many variables in tube manufacture like metal composites and actual quality of the metal and assemble techniques the reverse engineering can't determine. But it's good to know they are trying.
The post WW2 western world Industrial boom was a unique period in time that may never be replecated. It's like asking the Russians or Chinese to built a 57' Chevy now in 2007. How close you think they could get to the real deal?
I would bet they could do it better than GM could do it in 07'.:beerchug:
According to Bob from Eurotubes he sacrificed a prized set of his NOS KT-77's So the people at JJ could reverse engineer them. Don't know how close they got? There are many variables in tube manufacture like metal composites and actual quality of the metal and assemble techniques the reverse engineering can't determine. But it's good to know they are trying.
The post WW2 western world Industrial boom was a unique period in time that may never be replecated. It's like asking the Russians or Chinese to built a 57' Chevy now in 2007. How close you think they could get to the real deal?
I would bet they could do it better than GM could do it in 07'.:beerchug:
johnny blackwater
New member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
GM can`t even make a Toyota!
GM can`t even make a Toyota!
James Rock
New member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
They are trying. GT make mullard 12AX7 reissues that sound great (compared to everything else i've tried including jj's) but all 4 of them created mechanical noise like something was loose making them all useless to me especially seeming the louder your amp is the louder the noise so the noise floor was constant and annoying.
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
IM not sure why new companies can't make a tube that asounds like anold tube...some are close but none of them nail it IMO.
I also want to atleast mention that there are a LOT of players out there that woudl not benefit at all from NOPS tubes...those tubes were not made to run some of the voltages some of todays amps run and they sure were not made to run in high gain settings...
IM not sure why new companies can't make a tube that asounds like anold tube...some are close but none of them nail it IMO.
I also want to atleast mention that there are a LOT of players out there that woudl not benefit at all from NOPS tubes...those tubes were not made to run some of the voltages some of todays amps run and they sure were not made to run in high gain settings...
wahwah
GumbyLoveologist
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
In some cases it's actually the other way round. For some tube types, Golden Era power tubes are much more capable of handling higher voltages, and the Chinese and Eastern Bloc tubes have struggled in many cases to meet the demands of the older amp designs. For example, in the case of 6V6's, certain brands of current production tubes used to die in a matter of moments in a spectacular and potentially amp killing light show. This is why they have had to radically improve their designs, to try to live up to the handling capabilities of the older tubes.
Hi gain applications are about cascading gain stages, generally multiple 12AX7's. Cascading Mullard ECC83's will give a stunning degree and quality of gain, since the general output characteristics of the 12AX7 have not changed. Since none of the current production tubes can match the efficiency of the likes of RCA, Mullard and Telefunken, they are simply gauged by varying degrees of inefficiency. Today's 12AX7 is not "higher gain" than those of the 1960's.
The reason that certain modern amps are better off with .25c Chinese tubes is because they have been designed around these tubes from the start, and are therefore voiced to suit them.
Cheers.......................wahwah
In some cases it's actually the other way round. For some tube types, Golden Era power tubes are much more capable of handling higher voltages, and the Chinese and Eastern Bloc tubes have struggled in many cases to meet the demands of the older amp designs. For example, in the case of 6V6's, certain brands of current production tubes used to die in a matter of moments in a spectacular and potentially amp killing light show. This is why they have had to radically improve their designs, to try to live up to the handling capabilities of the older tubes.
Hi gain applications are about cascading gain stages, generally multiple 12AX7's. Cascading Mullard ECC83's will give a stunning degree and quality of gain, since the general output characteristics of the 12AX7 have not changed. Since none of the current production tubes can match the efficiency of the likes of RCA, Mullard and Telefunken, they are simply gauged by varying degrees of inefficiency. Today's 12AX7 is not "higher gain" than those of the 1960's.
The reason that certain modern amps are better off with .25c Chinese tubes is because they have been designed around these tubes from the start, and are therefore voiced to suit them.
Cheers.......................wahwah
johnny blackwater
New member
Re: Someone explain NOS tubes to me
"NOPS" tubes? I guess thats supposed to mean "New Old Piece of Sh1t" tubes? I can see that you have very little experience with vintage tubes, and a general lack of knowledge about tube amplifier circuit design, if anything is being done to accommodate new amps to modern Chinese and Soviet Bloc tubes, its a cut in treble responce to make up for their god awful shrillness. In addition to my NOS collection I have quite a few modern pre-amp tubes to compare with, the only ones I could tolerate were JJ ECC803s & ECC83s, a handfull of 9th gen 12ax7 Shugang`s, the sovtek 12ax7LPS, and some older GT 7025 smooth plates. the GT 12ax7 Mullards are good, but unreliable. At 600 VOLTS on the plates, I couldn`t find any modern 6l6`s (including the so-called 7591A`s) that would last more than a couple months in my Ampeg V2, I`ve got a pair of NOS 7027A`s that are in there now, and still going strong after two years.
Last edited: