Stainless steel frets vs. regular

[CapoFirstFret]

Alright guys, I've seen you guys mention a lot of stuff about stainless steel frets, so I really need some info. Do they really never need refretting? and what kind of difference in tone can I expect...what about feel? how do they wear out? do they ever? I don't get it..if they're so much better, why doesn't everyone use them? would it be beneficial to me to refret my guitars with stainless steel frets when it comes time to refret them?

 

[JALIN]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

I`ll let you know when I get my ss fret loaded guitar. Should be in 2 weeks.

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Alright guys, I've seen you guys mention a lot of stuff about stainless steel frets, so I really need some info. Do they really never need refretting? and what kind of difference in tone can I expect...what about feel? how do they wear out? do they ever? I don't get it..if they're so much better, why doesn't everyone use them? would it be beneficial to me to refret my guitars with stainless steel frets when it comes time to refret them?

Refretting: will probably never need one

Difference in tone: None, if any, it's negligible. Those that say it makes the guitar too bright are old fashioned yodels who have never used them or do luthiering and make money off refret jobs and fret levels and polishes.

Wear: You will probably never notice any wear and they should never wear out. My '97 still shows not a sign of any kind of fretwear and it's nearly 10 years old.

Feel: They feel a LOT better, bends and slides are easier, they are silky smooth, less resistance.

Why doesn't everyone use them: For a couple of reasons, 1. old fashioned yodels and some others are afraid of change or using something different. 2. historically nickel/silver frets are used because it's softer and easier to work with, it costs less to manufacture a guitar with them, and if companies started using them on their guitar they would have to update their fretting tools also. They figure they've been doing it for so long, why change now. 3. Again, people make money off refrets. If all guitars were SS frets, that portion of the market would virtually disappear.

Beneficial? Yes, if you play a lot and wear out your frets fast or do a lot of bending and want a smooth feel instead of drag and resistance and if you're tired of having grooves all over your fretboard. It does cost a lot though for a SS refret but the thing is, you'll never need one again after that.

Again, myself and others who have SS frets on our guitars cannot percieve any differenc in tone with SS frets, if at all. If anything that's just a myth or stigma created by the industry.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

I've owned and played Warmoth necks with jumbo stainless steel frets, my overall feeling is that they are an improvement over standard frets in many ways, but they do have a few minor drawbacks. Generally speaking, it's very unlikely that you would ever need a refret. Stainless steel frets are much harder and smoother than nickel silver. In fact, you might not even need a fret dress in this lifetime. It depends a lot on your playing style. Stainless frets are very smooth, they make vibrato and string bending an absolute joy. They also have a cool look to them, very shiny.

I'm sure someone will mention Ed Roman's rant about stainless steel frets and how horrible he thinks they are. I personally think he's full of it when it comes to this topic, and here's why...the main disadvantage of stainless frets is that they are much more difficult to work with than regular nickel silver. They are difficult to bend to the proper radius, they will wear out a set of fret nippers with one refret, and you really need a diamond crowning file to dress them properly without destroying the file. All this adds up to more difficult, expensive, and time-consuming work for the luthier who installs them. Once a customer has them installed, he's likely to never need any further fret work. Ed Roman probably does a ton of refret business, and he realizes that time is money. If he were to recommend stainless frets, it would be more difficult on his luthiers, and they would get no further business from the customer, as they wouldn't likely ever need a refret or fret dressing. So Ed bad-mouths stainless steel frets for that reason.

I do think that they are a tad bit brighter than regular frets. And when I say "tad bit brighter," I mean the equivalent of turning the tone control from 9 to 10, or bumping the presence knob on your amp. In most cases it shouldn't be a big deal, and with certain darker-sounding guitars it can even be a good thing. But if you had a guitar that was already super bright, stainless frets might add to the problem.

The only other drawback is the cost. A refret with regular frets costs around $200, and a fret dressing costs around $75. After talking with several good luthiers, I've been quoted $300-$400 for a refret with stainless steel and $125-$150 for a fret dressing. So even though you'll probably never need any further fret work, the initial cost is very high compared to nickel silver.

Ryan

 

[rspst14]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Refretting: will probably never need one

Difference in tone: None, if any, it's negligible. Those that say it makes the guitar too bright are old fashioned yodels who have never used them or do luthiering and make money off refret jobs and fret levels and polishes.

Wear: You will probably never notice any wear and they should never wear out. My '97 still shows not a sign of any kind of fretwear and it's nearly 10 years old.

Feel: They feel a LOT better, bends and slides are easier, they are silky smooth, less resistance.

Why doesn't everyone use them: For a couple of reasons, 1. old fashioned yodels and some others are afraid of change or using something different. 2. historically nickel/silver frets are used because it's softer and easier to work with, it costs less to manufacture a guitar with them, and if companies started using them on their guitar they would have to update their fretting tools also. They figure they've been doing it for so long, why change now. 3. Again, people make money off refrets. If all guitars were SS frets, that portion of the market would virtually disappear.

Beneficial? Yes, if you play a lot and wear out your frets fast or do a lot of bending and want a smooth feel instead of drag and resistance and if you're tired of having grooves all over your fretboard. It does cost a lot though for a SS refret but the thing is, you'll never need one again after that.

Again, myself and others who have SS frets on our guitars cannot percieve any differenc in tone with SS frets, if at all. If anything that's just a myth or stigma created by the industry.

You beat me to it...I agree with all of that.

I'll add that Paul Reed Smith, Dan Erlewine, Tom Anderson, and other respected builders and luthiers really like them. Paul has said that the only thing keeping him from switching to stainless steel frets is the added time it takes to properly install them. It would really slow down the production of his guitars. A number of smaller builders have switched exclusively to stainless.

One other thing, Greg from Warmoth has mentioned that they have never had anyone complain about the tone of a Warmoth neck with stainless frets installed. If they were ridiculously bright like Ed Roman claims, Warmoth's phones would be ringing off the hook with people who were angry about being tricked into such a horrible feature. It's just not happening. Greg claims not one person has ever complained to them about it.

Ryan

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Here's a possible issue with warmoth though, the guitar tech I use believes that warmoth's Stainless fretwire isn't in fact Stainless Steel. He says it's much softer and works like regular fretwire and that warmoth may be cutting corners here and making extra dough off the claim that the SS they use takes longer to install. He said he can't tell the difference between that and regular fretwire from warmoth aside from the fast that it doesn't oxidize. It may be a SS alloy of some sort.

I can't verify this, but I put it out there. I may call gregg and ask him about it.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with your tech. There are people out there selling a cheaper stainless steel wire. This is usually made in Asia and it is much softer and cheaper than regular stainless steel wire. I believe Warmoth uses a supplier in Germany who sells the real thing. If you're interested in reading up on this, do a search for "stainless steel" on the projectguitar forum.

My guess is that your tech hasn't done a full refret with real stainless steel wire. Stainless steel is harder on cutting tools. When it comes to leveling them, they are not that much tougher than regular fretwire, especially if you use sandpaper that doesn't load up to do the leveling. I would be interested in hearing Greg's input, but my experience has been that Warmoth uses top quality stainless steel wire.

Ryan

 

[theodie]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

I have done a fret leveling, crown and polish on a neck that had Warmoths SS fretwire and it wasnt that much more diffacult than standard.

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with your tech. There are people out there selling a cheaper stainless steel wire. This is usually made in Asia and it is much softer and cheaper than regular stainless steel wire. I believe Warmoth uses a supplier in Germany who sells the real thing. If you're interested in reading up on this, do a search for "stainless steel" on the projectguitar forum.

My guess is that your tech hasn't done a full refret with real stainless steel wire. Stainless steel is harder on cutting tools. When it comes to leveling them, they are not that much tougher than regular fretwire, especially if you use sandpaper that doesn't load up to do the leveling. I would be interested in hearing Greg's input, but my experience has been that Warmoth uses top quality stainless steel wire.

Ryan

No I don't think he's done a full SS refrets. His comment was based on the fact that LOT of people bring him their newly ordered warmoth necks to finish because they don't finish the frets and it's just something he noticed. I have no first hand experience with the warmoth SS fret wire at all.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Like I said, it's more difficult on cutting and bending tools...end nippers, fret benders, tang cutters, etc. Don't ever buy stainless wire on Ebay, that's usually the cheap stuff. I think Warmoth uses top-notch stainless wire, as do most of the high-end builders who offer it. I think there is so much misinformation floating around on this topic that it's sometimes hard to know what is true and what isn't.

Ryan

 

[Stirt]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Here's a possible issue with warmoth though, the guitar tech I use believes that warmoth's Stainless fretwire isn't in fact Stainless Steel. He says it's much softer and works like regular fretwire and that warmoth may be cutting corners here and making extra dough off the claim that the SS they use takes longer to install. He said he can't tell the difference between that and regular fretwire from warmoth aside from the fast that it doesn't oxidize. It may be a SS alloy of some sort.

Hi Guys,

All stainless steel is an alloy made primarily of steel and nickel.

Here's a spiff on our frets:

18% Nickel-Silver Fretwire
HV 170 Vicker’s Hardness rating (approximate)
62% Copper
18% Nickel
20% Zinc

61G “Gold Colored” Fretwire
Technically, this is a bronze alloy. Similar to that used for church bells, which is 20% tin.
HV 230 Vicker’s Hardness rating
83.9% Copper
15% Tin
1% Iron
0.1% Titanium (as an antioxidant to prevent tarnishing)


I don't have a break down on our stainless steel wire yet. We haven't been asked for it before but all reports of its performance has been stellar including my experience with it. I have it on four of my guitars now. I put ruts in my frets all my life until I started using this Warmoth stainless wire. One of my guitars has been played solid for two years and the frets still look brand new. Actually, better than new since they are really smooth now from all the playing. I would have needed two fret jobs by now on standard fret wire. For me and many many others, it's the ticket.

Gregg-

 

[Xeromus]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Thanks gregg, I didn't even get a chance to call you about it.

 

[B2D]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Well I know what I'm getting on my next refret on about 2-3 years!

 

[Stirt]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Mo info:

Our Stainless Steel frets are the 403 Alloy with an HV 250 Vicker’s Hardness rating.

Thanks.

Gregg-
Warmoth Guitar Products

 

[B2D]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Hay Gregg... can I send the neck from my own guitar to Warmoth for a refret or is that not something you dudes can do due to time constraints etc etc?

 

[rspst14]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

I'm pretty sure they don't do outside work. There are luthiers who can do it for you, Greg at BCR Music is one of the best luthiers in the country, and he offers stainless steel refrets...www.bcrmusic.com

Ryan

 

[Stirt]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

Ryan is right. Unfortunately we don't do any service work, just manufacturing of new product.

Gregg-

 

[Quencho092]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

is the gold colored wire more durable than the regular nickel frets?

 

[Quencho092]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

and i think that the only downside besides a very tiny increase in brightness is that strings wear out quicker on SS since it's harder. But if it's well polished and crowned i doubt there would be much difference.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Stainless steel frets vs. regular

and i think that the only downside besides a very tiny increase in brightness is that strings wear out quicker on SS since it's harder. But if it's well polished and crowned i doubt there would be much difference.

I've heard that, but I'm not sure if it's true or not. I don't really notice the strings wearing out quicker, my belief is that friction causes wear to the strings, not the hardness of the frets. If I'm correct, strings should actually last a bit longer due to the smoother fret surface.

Ryan