Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

[AR999]

OK,

Strange title to a new thread, especially for a new guy, but I had something very interesting happen..
I have been very unhappy with the '57 Classic that came stock in the bridge of my 2012 ES-335, and I have (now had:doh been trying magnet swaps.
I tried Alnico 3, 4, 5 even an 8 in there and just realized that the regular '57 is not wound right for what I am looking for, you guys helped me out with that conclusion earlier..

So I had this 490T here that someone had done the short A5 "T-top" mod to.. For the record, that mod did not make it sound anything like a T-top, but I needed a pickup. I'm not a huge 490T fan and liked the mod even less, so I ended up trying all the other magnets in the 490T as an experiment, well, it turns out the 490T with the magnet it would have come stock with ~~A2 ~~sounded light years ahead of the pack.. It sounded great, now my question is: (excuse my lack of knowledge in the magnet area) are their different grades of magnets, (besides the obvious--polished or rough.. short or long) I'm talking quality.. This A2 was out of the higher priced '57 Classic, is there any reason it would make a 490T sound better than it's stock magnet or are my tired ears just happy to be rid of the Classic?

Just in case my ears are fooling me I have a SD '59 on the way..

Thanks for taking the time to read and/or reply..

 

[jeremy]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

i have to assume that gibson uses the same alnico II magnets on the 490 and 57 as long as they are the same length and both polished

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

OK,

Strange title to a new thread, especially for a new guy, but I had something very interesting happen..
I have been very unhappy with the '57 Classic that came stock in the bridge of my 2012 ES-335, and I have (now had:doh been trying magnet swaps.
I tried Alnico 3, 4, 5 even an 8 in there and just realized that the regular '57 is not wound right for what I am looking for, you guys helped me out with that conclusion earlier..

So I had this 490T here that someone had done the short A5 "T-top" mod to.. For the record, that mod did not make it sound anything like a T-top, but I needed a pickup. I'm not a huge 490T fan and liked the mod even less, so I ended up trying all the other magnets in the 490T as an experiment, well, it turns out the 490T with the magnet it would have come stock with ~~A2 ~~sounded light years ahead of the pack.. It sounded great, now my question is: (excuse my lack of knowledge in the magnet area) are their different grades of magnets, (besides the obvious--polished or rough.. short or long) I'm talking quality.. This A2 was out of the higher priced '57 Classic, is there any reason it would make a 490T sound better than it's stock magnet or are my tired ears just happy to be rid of the Classic?

Just in case my ears are fooling me I have a SD '59 on the way..

Thanks for taking the time to read and/or reply..

I know what I'm about to say it may be controversial for many, however, it all come from my own experience of literally hundreds of p'up modding jobs.

Depending on the Alnico grade, it takes from about three days for the strongest mags to even a whole month for the weakest to stabilize the newly induced magnetic field, which will dictate not only the "tone" as in EQ, but the behavior, as the response to picking technique and the decay of the free-ringing notes.

If you didn't leave enough time for the p'up to "settle" the shape of the new magnetic field and circuit after every magnet change, your process of establishing the p'ups tone by changing magnets was faulty at the very root.

HTH,

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

Jeremy,
I do know from the swap that the '57 did have the polished Alinco II, the only 490T I've taken apart was this one that had the modded magnet already, but I have to assume you're spot on..

Lt. Kojak,

With the '57 I did give the magnets a few days at least to see what they could do, but I did not with this 490T, I did do the swaps with a very limited amount of playing time with each one before swapping them out, so I definitely see your point, but this A2 was given the same amount of time for testing the tone and it just sounded right directly from the start, could it just be that the 490T was designed with an A2 in mind so it acclimated right away? Or was it just simple, for lack of a better term, luck? Because it sounds great...And as I said before, I've never been a fan of these pickups before.

Right now, I'm getting a tone that works well enough for me until I get the the SD '59 and put it to task, so I'm happy. (ha,, for the moment.. :laugh2

I do very much appreciate the knowledge/insight...

AR

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

The T-top mod is using a 490R (not the 490T) with a short A5. If you do this, then it is somewhat close. Or I should say, with the 490R + the short A5's I got from ReWind it does sound somewhat similar to the stamped cover '72 T-top's I own.

And everyone's ears like different things, and some guitars work better with certain pickups better than others. Some magnets do this too. They don't all come from the same place, and the imperfections in the material make the magnet what it is.

And you said 'someone' had done the t-top mod.....so that means you bought it with the A5 in there already. The stock mag from the factory is an A2 in the 490's.

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

You are correct, I did buy it from from someone that clearly told me it was modded, a 490T with the Short A5 and that it sounded very close to the later model T tops (with the T on the top).. but to me it just didn't have the bite and semi-harsh tone that I remembered and was actually looking for..
I knew the 490T came stock with the A2, but the person I was dealing with swore his mod had the tone I was looking for.. It didn't, oh well.. As I said above I've never liked the 490T with it's stock A2, but I am really digging this pickup/magnet/guitar tone right now, so I'm not going to worry about model numbers or magnet types for a bit, as I am one to obsess about these things. I was just wondering more if higher end pickups use a better quality magnet and / or if there is even actually such a thing.. I guess I could always just look up magnets on the science side of things.. But doing it backwards through guitar world is more entertaining and sometimes even more informative when you're lucky.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

The T-top mod is using a 490R (not the 490T) with a short A5. If you do this, then it is somewhat close

If you by "somewhat close", mean "polar opposites", then I agree with you.

FYI, the 490R and 490T are both wound to the same amount of turns, which are about 10% more than the T-Top. The 490T DC reads bit higher than the 490R because the bobbin is longer, due to the wider polepiece spread.

The T-Top wind is tight, bright and snappy, the 490R is soft, dark and wooly.

So the infamous "490R T-Top mod" is nothing by a myth, solely based on Internet parroting of baseless, hearsay-induced blank statements, and most probably originated by somebody that was tone-deaf to start with.

HTH,

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

this A2 was given the same amount of time for testing the tone and it just sounded right directly from the start, could it just be that the 490T was designed with an A2 in mind so it acclimated right away? Or was it just simple, for lack of a better term, luck?

I think your ear accomodated the "less worse" as the best-sounding of all mostly by "Ear fatigue", something that often happens when working in a studio with a tight schedule to deliver a product.

Anyway, I'd suggest to put an A3 into that '57 Classic and try it pairing-up with the 490T. Just give at least a couple of weeks before looking for the "sweet spot". Or, even better, get that A3 in the '59n. It sounds pretty good to me, if I may say so.

Last but not least: if you like T-Tops, the closest Duncan wind is the Jazz neck/APH1N with an A3 in it. Tight, bright and snappy, but no harsh highs and a lot more dynamic.

HTH,

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

If you by "somewhat close", mean "polar opposites", then I agree with you.

FYI, the 490R and 490T are both wound to the same amount of turns, which are about 10% more than the T-Top. The 490T DC reads bit higher than the 490R because the bobbin is longer, due to the wider polepiece spread.

The T-Top wind is tight, bright and snappy, the 490R is soft, dark and wooly.

So the infamous "490R T-Top mod" is nothing by a myth, solely based on Internet parroting of baseless, hearsay-induced blank statements, and most probably originated by somebody that was tone-deaf to start with.

HTH,

Not with a short A5 from James from ReWind in it is isn't. Maybe your amp doesn't deal with subtleties well

Anyhow it was close enough for me to like the tone enough to buy a real T-top and get the real thing, and it does well enough in the Hagstrom semihollow to stay in there.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

Not with a short A5 from James from ReWind in it is isn't.

Well, if you really think so, more power to you, then!

Maybe your amp doesn't deal with subtleties well

In all the A/B comparisons I've made over the years, the difference of tone among the two was no subtle at all. Anyway, if you like it, that's everything that counts.

Anyhow it was close enough for me to like the tone enough to buy a real T-top and get the real thing, and it does well enough in the Hagstrom semihollow to stay in there.

Enjoy it with health for many years to come!

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

Lt. Kojak..

Regarding your last thoughts on the pickups and magnets, I am keeping the 57 Classic in the neck, the bridge is out for sure, I knew it from the moment I heard it, it just wasn't MY[/B]thing.. Even with the magnet swaps..

I'll gonna give my ears a break for a while, then I really want to try a 3 or 4 to replace the A2 in the neck, but, this time I want to take plenty of time with each magnet, no rushing because I need to get a guitar up and running, I'd rather it be an enjoyable experiment than a hasty task..

The bridge SD '59 will be here today, I'm going to give it a good month in the bridge to see how I like it and time for me to adjust my amp to the brighter pickup.. If I'm not happy with it after that, the aforementioned 490T simply goes back in, and hopefully it'll have the same pleasing tone I'm currently liking.

Thanks for all your advice.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

I am keeping the 57 Classic in the neck, the bridge is out for sure, I knew it from the moment I heard it, it just wasn't MY[/B]thing.. Even with the magnet swaps..

An A3 in the '57 Classic in the neck will probably play nice with the 490T.

The bridge SD '59 will be here today,

Oh, I assumed you were looking for a NECK p'up... you know, you could sell those Gibson p'ups of yours and get a '59 neck to pair up the '59 bridge, make the aforementioned A3/A2 mod to'em and live happy ever after.

Good luck, and don't forget to report back once the honeymoon period is over.

HTH,

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

Just theoretically, after I give this '59 a fair amount of time, what affect should an Alnico 4 have on it?
First impression, it's incredibly bright! But hey, it's the first day..

Also as a side note, this '59 is one of the Production Floor Custom Models.. Apparently it was made as one of a few (who knows actually how many) prototypes to see if the aged nickel Antiquity look should be a stock option for the normal '59 line. Or so I was told... Came marked as such, and with a "Stock" looking custom box, not the style box that I received my two "real" Custom Shop ordered pickups came in though.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

First impression, it's incredibly bright!

And so it should be. After all, it's been modeled after a PAF, and they were bright. Think Bloomfield in "Super Session" and don't forget that there's a "Tone" knob on the guitar. Use it!

Also, the cover IS an integral part of the "PAF tone", if you ask me. Is yours coverless?

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

No,
It has an aged nickel cover, aged pole pieces as well..
It's funny I've owned a few '59s in the past but.. A) Never used one in a semi hollow body and B) That was in the early 90's and all my tone was a Marshall JCM 800 cranked all the way up, so the brightness of the '59 would have just enhanced that tone, keeping the bottom end in check so to speak, so I probably never even noticed the actual tone of the pickup on it's own merit.

So technically, I've always liked the 59's I just need to sit down and adjust the pickup height / pole pieces, along with my amp that's been dialed in for my Les Pauls for quite a while, not for a 335 with a nice bright pickup..

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

No,
It has an aged nickel cover, aged pole pieces as well..

Great!

It's funny I've owned a few '59s in the past but.. A) Never used one in a semi hollow body and B) That was in the early 90's and all my tone was a Marshall JCM 800 cranked all the way up, so the brightness of the '59 would have just enhanced that tone, keeping the bottom end in check so to speak, so I probably never even noticed the actual tone of the pickup on it's own merit.

So technically, I've always liked the 59's I just need to sit down and adjust the pickup height / pole pieces, along with my amp that's been dialed in for my Les Pauls for quite a while, not for a 335 with a nice bright pickup..

So, as a 335 man as myself, have some semi-hollow p0rn:


That's my #3, which I use as a guitar-synth controller: modded Epi Alnico Classic Pro p'up set, A3/UOA5 mag set.

I've documented the modding process of this guitar, so here you've got the links, if you're interested:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...se-view-pt-1&p=3502211&viewfull=1#post3502211

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...se-view-pt-2&p=3502438&viewfull=1#post3502438

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...ob-done-pt-1&p=3503558&viewfull=1#post3503558

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...uckers-DONE!&p=3504078&viewfull=1#post3504078



That's Gertrude, my L5CES copy. A3/A2 modded Jazz set.



That's my #2. Maple body, mahogany neck, Korean 335 copy, made in 1981 in the Samick factory, Tamaki branded. UOA5-modded Antiquity set.





Last but not least, my #1: all-maple, MIJ, made in the Terada factory in 1980 335 copy, Emperador branded. This one hosts an Electric City Pickups Freedom set. Stock A4/A4 mags. PAF greatness through and through as no other I've ever played, including original PAFs.

Enjoy!

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

These are my two Semi-Hollows...

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

Sorry about revisiting this thread so late, but I just wanted to report back in with the results.. After giving it a while I can't decide whether I am going to experiment with a magnet swap or just try a different pickup altogether in the bridge of the ES 335. The '59 performs just like it should, I'm just finding it too bright and it almost seems to accentuate the lesser parts of the semi hollow body, sort of like the pickup has no tone at all, definitely lacking in the warmth department (which the '57 Classic had way to much of..) Someone here recommended the SD Whole Lotta Humbucker for my style.. I might just pick up (ha!:smack one of those and keep this '59 intact as it was a Production Floor Custom Pickup, fully aged nickel cover and pole pieces.. Too nice for me to start digging into when it might be the perfect fit for another guitar I think.. Any other suggestions? Cheers!

 

[AR999]

Re: Strange outcome of a pickup failure..

I see someone has now started the thread I was thinking about......... The Whole Lotta Humbucker vs Dimarzio 36th..