swamp ash vs alder?

[BloodRose]

I always thought swamp ash was supposed to be brighter than alder. Am I off on that??
I have the same pickup in my Explorer, a swamp ash guitar and an alder guitar with maple cap.

The Explorer growls as I expected.
The Alder with maple sings like nobodys biz.. Has more of an airy tone
The Swamp ash sings, but has a bit of a gonna steal your lunch money attitude... Its Killer and leads just tear, but I was expecting it to be alittle bit above the Alder.

I wanted to see if this is normal.. the pickups on this and the alder are direct mount and I was wondering if I needed to lower the pickup. If this is a normal tonal character, Ill leave it be.

I may just have my wires crossed with maple, and I dont have much experience with Ash..

(Keeper, I hope you can handle this bully.... :cool2

 

[BigJoe77]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

That sounds about like I would describe the difference between alder and ash. In the same vein, but air vs. bite.

 

[CaughtLikeFire]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

I always thought swamp ash was supposed to be brighter than alder. Am I off on that??
I have the same pickup in my Explorer, a swamp ash guitar and an alder guitar with maple cap.

The Explorer growls as I expected.
The Alder with maple sings like nobodys biz.. Has more of an airy tone
The Swamp ash sings, but has a bit of a gonna steal your lunch money attitude... Its Killer and leads just tear, but I was expecting it to be alittle bit above the Alder.

I wanted to see if this is normal.. the pickups on this and the alder are direct mount and I was wondering if I needed to lower the pickup. If this is a normal tonal character, Ill leave it be.

I may just have my wires crossed with maple, and I dont have much experience with Ash..

(Keeper, I hope you can handle this bully.... :cool2

my swamp ash 72 Tele Dlx doesn't have the same push in the upper mids as my old alder Strat (both have Fender hardtail bridges and humbuckers so its not apples-to-oranges here).

the ash has more bass and the highs are stronger - it has more clarity than the alder guitar. the alder is not muddy - the ash just has more spank no matter what pup or amp I use. some people describe swamp ash as having a mid scoop - i'd say its flatter in the upper mids than alder, maybe slightly less low mids, but not a dramatic scoop.

I dig them both

 

[jeremy]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

ash seems to have more variability than most other woods.

the maple top and the fact that there is a glued on top will change things considerably

 

[Zerberus]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

^^ +1, for the most part your description is what I would expect out of theose 3 wood combos..

I generally use my alder jacksons for most part because of the airiness and fullness of the tone.

But when I wanna steal lunch money, I too pull out the swamp ash charvel

it´s a lot like the loudness control on a stereo in a way... alder is without the loudness control´s mildly accentuated bass and highs, and the ash is with

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

Oh yeah, deff.

I once A/Bed a Swamp Ash Strat vs an Alder Strat (both from Swing) and the alder one was considerably more "musical" I guess I could call it whereas the Swamp Ash one had a much badder attack and bite.

Quite similar were the results when I A/Bed some Jazz-bass copies (same shape, alder vs ash bodies).
The Alder one was the fuller sounding whereas the ash one was the one with the more snap and bite.

So, what you described is what I'd more or less expect from it to be like.
That's primarily the reason why I'd expect to find a Pearly Gates in an Ash bodied guitar.

The PG is really fat but has very little definition which is why it is supposed to compliment the Ash body's snap but lack of lows...

Of course, as some of us know it's not as if there aren't better alternatives to be found...

 

[WhoFan]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

my 2 cents is a note about comparing 2 guitars with different woods with the same PU's... unless the 2 guitars are of the exact same model and the same model PU's are mounted in the exact same location then there is no way to A/B the tone difference...

i've done quite a bit of experimenting with PU locations and i prefer my bridge Humbucker pu's quite a distance from the bridge... just a little farther towards the neck then Fender uses on their stock HSS Fat strats... the location of the PU in the bridge postition can change the tone so much!!!! if i want a fatter sound i move it towards the neck... if i want a more crisp sound i'll move it closer to the bridge...

then like the others pointed out each piece of wood is different... i've made 2 bodies out of the same board before and each sounds different...

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

My experience with swamp ash is that your choice of fretboard material makes all the difference. With a rosewood fretboard it was too dark and it sounds much better with a maple fretboard.

 

[theboatcandream]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

Related but off topic,



http://www.kensmithbasses.com/woodpages/swampash.html

"Northern White Ash (Hard Ash) is too heavy & dense to produce guitar grade tone wood."


Is that true?

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

Related but off topic,



http://www.kensmithbasses.com/woodpages/swampash.html

"Northern White Ash (Hard Ash) is too heavy & dense to produce guitar grade tone wood."


Is that true?

In his opinion. I have a northern hard ash strat and although its bright it is not toneless or sterile. It's just **** hard to find pickups I like in it!

 

[philthis]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

tried this a few years ago with 2 strats. what I noticed was the ash was sharper on tone. it seemed to catch the fizz or gain on the distortion so it was slightly more pronounced on the notes. I still think the alders midrange was lauder or more pronounced but it has slightly less snap or bight on the notes. if you were doing alot of gainy distortion type leads you might enjoy the ash cuz it will pick up the gain but I noticed on cleans it made the single coil tones sometime seem harsh and anoiying and less smooth belltone like. I definently turned the treble down to soften the tone on the cleans from the singles-this is just my own experiance but I played them back to back. they both had a maple neck just to warn you so it was going to be bright anyway.
:beerchug:

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

Related but off topic,



http://www.kensmithbasses.com/woodpages/swampash.html

"Northern White Ash (Hard Ash) is too heavy & dense to produce guitar grade tone wood."


Is that true?

i thought the original frankenstrat(supa'tone:smokin was made of northern ash:scratchch

 

[Zerberus]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

Related but off topic,



http://www.kensmithbasses.com/woodpages/swampash.html

"Northern White Ash (Hard Ash) is too heavy & dense to produce guitar grade tone wood."


Is that true?

I disagree with this statement entirely.

It´s not easy to find LIGHT pieces of northern ash. But it is most definitely a more than usable tonewood IMO. Assuming you can live with the extra pound or pound and a half.

There are instruments such as explorers that I wouldn´t recommend making out of ash for the simple reason that they´re already quite hefty as it is, but that´s really the only limitation I see on the use of hard ash.

What strikes me as even more odd is that KS is quite well known for his excellent basses, and he states "Northern White Ash (Hard Ash) is too heavy & dense to produce guitar grade tone wood.", yet he offers and uses significantly heavier and denser woods such as Bubinga, Cocobolo, Imbula, pau Ferro, Ovankol and Purpleheart without batting an eye?

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

What strikes me as even more odd is that KS is quite well known for his excellent basses, and he states "Northern White Ash (Hard Ash) is too heavy & dense to produce guitar grade tone wood.", yet he offers and uses significantly heavier and denser woods such as Bubinga, Cocobolo, Imbula, pau Ferro, Ovankol and Purpleheart without batting an eye?

i don't know who this guy is, but i do know that those woods are exotic/expensive sounding, as opposed to plain ol' hard ash. some of those woods might not actually be that much more in cost, but just the fact that they're not the norm in most guitar builds creates a desire to have them, you kno'?

 

[Zerberus]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

i don't know who this guy is, but i do know that those woods are exotic/expensive sounding, as opposed to plain ol' hard ash. some of those woods might not actually be that much more in cost, but just the fact that they're not the norm in most guitar builds creates a desire to have them, you kno'?

Exotic = bettr in many people´s minds, this is true.

But that still doesn´t turn Hard ash into a 5lb/board Ft monster that would now line up perfectly with his statement about it and still allow the use of the (at current ash specs) much heavier and denser tropical woods

In other wirds, if northern ash is too heavy and dense to make a viable tonewood, almost no tropical wood stands a ghost of a chance, and to be honest maple and walnut generally are also harder and denser. So by that statement one massively limits ones choice of woods ... or one assumes that the casual reader will not notice that most of the woods used actually go even further than the discredited one, the "Scapegoat system" so to speak, get people pointing fingers at something so they won´t notice something else

Note that this is not meant as a dig at Ken in any way, but as a luthier for over 15 years this statement confouds me somewhat...

 

[mytele]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

My experience with swamp ash is that your choice of fretboard material makes all the difference. With a rosewood fretboard it was too dark and it sounds much better with a maple fretboard.

Is very interesting, maybe this is the one i looking for, do you think if i built telecaster ash body with rosewood fingerboard and put humbucker on neck is good for jazz tone? Thanks.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

Jeremy is right on. There is so much variability in swamp ash. It certainly depends alot on where the wood was cut from the tree (as well as which tree it came from). Speaking about true swamp ash (not some other ash posing as swamp ash), the wood cut from the lower part of the tree that is always under water generally has a warmer, richer, fuller tone and is very light weight. Wood taken from the higher parts of the tree can be denser, brighter, more snap, and definitely heavier.

I've got a piece of swamp ash taken from the very bottom part of the tree which I have been using on several of my latest builds which is warmer and fuller sounding than any mahogany, and is also WAY lighter. The tones are absolutely amazing when mated with a maple neck. The worst part is that it is filled with many worm holes that require much grain filling and finishing. But it's a small price to pay for such lovely tone. My next build using this wood will have a maple cap as well as a maple neck to give it even more snap and clarity.

 

[Mincer]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

I have a 1982 'The Strat' made of northern ash. It is pretty heavy, but sounds great. My experience is that alder sings, while ash has a pop to it. I like alder a bit better because of the music I play, but ash has a beautiful sound too, just in a different way. I think ash imparts the characteristic sound on the pickups a bit more. Alder seems to let each pickup do its thing, at least in my experience.

 

[AlexR]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

Is very interesting, maybe this is the one i looking for, do you think if i built telecaster ash body with rosewood fingerboard and put humbucker on neck is good for jazz tone? Thanks.

He would have had to have either 2 completely different necks, or he compared 2 separate guitars. Either way the fretboard was not the only difference.....and hence it is not a viable conclusion to make as there was more than 1 variable contributing to the difference.

As to your question......jazz is as variable in tone as rock. And its the player that makes it jazz not the guitar.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: swamp ash vs alder?

My experience with swamp ash is that your choice of fretboard material makes all the difference. With a rosewood fretboard it was too dark and it sounds much better with a maple fretboard.

I would die before doing a swamp ash Telecaster with a rosewood fretboard.