Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

Mr. B

Mr. B

New member
I have a Epiphone Elitist Les Paul that has a VERY thick poly finish on it, and one of the brightest, harshest sterile tones ever. I have played lower end Epi's, and in particular, a friend's Zakk Wyle Epi which sound much warmer. I am wondering if any of you have ever stripped the thick poly finish off a similar guitar and what effect it had (if any). It has some beautiful wood and is absolutely perfectly built. I've seen very few Gibsons that have better looking wood and build quality. I really want to like it, but I also don't want to ruin it for no reason. Someone else might like the extremely bright tone.

I know what everyone is about to start suggesting, so...

I have already tried:

Replacing pickups; 59 set, Seth set, JB/PG, and it now has a Dimarzio PAF and VHOTPAF.

Replacing the tone pots with lower values (300k, 250k); it now runs 250K bridge and 500k neck

Replacing the bridge saddles with graph-tech saddles

Replacing the bridge with tonepros

Replacing the stoptail with lightweight aluminum

Heavier gauge strings

Which is why I am down to the finish question. Thats the only thing I have not tried. Anyone have any experience??
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

It could be that specific block of wood in your Les Paul - it might be 'dead'. Every body is different even if it's the same type of wood.

I've heard that thick finishes can hinder a guitar from letting as much of the natural tone thru on not just Les Pauls but any type of guitar. I'd like to hear other people comment on whether it can impact your tone that much, especially with trying all those pickups.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

ya i would think it's the wood you don't like the sound of....

i have a 1988 American Standard strat with huge amounts of poly on it and it's the best sounding strat i've ever owned
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

Yes, it COULD be the wood. Thing is, I've played a couple other Epi Elitist over the last few years and they sound VERY similar. The lower end Epi's and the Zakk Wylde models I mentioned playing do not have the same bright harsh tones, or the same ultra-thick finish. Which leads me to believe it may be the EXTRA thick coats of poly they spray on the elitists to make the finishes look extra deep and glossy. Besides, I hear its very difficult to change only the wood in a guitar. :)
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

Mr. B said:
Yes, it COULD be the wood. Thing is, I've played a couple other Epi Elitist over the last few years and they sound VERY similar. The lower end Epi's and the Zakk Wylde models I mentioned playing do not have the same bright harsh tones, or the same ultra-thick finish. Which leads me to believe it may be the EXTRA thick coats of poly they spray on the elitists to make the finishes look extra deep and glossy. Besides, I hear its very difficult to change only the wood in a guitar. :)
Click to expand...


na... removing the finnish will only "maybe and slightly" improve a good sounding guitar's tone... it will not make a bad sounding guitar sound great...

on a production line 3 guitars made from the same log will all sound different from piece to piece.... trust the fact all wood is not the same
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

My 1981 Gibson Les Paul Heritage sort of has a harsh sound with the bridge pickup. It's still has the original "patent applied for" pickups in it and I plan on updating soon as I pay off my new MarkIV head. I get around that tone by using the middle position on the switch and dropping the volume a few notches on the neck pickup. It's got such nice tone that way for rhythm. The finish on the neck bothers me though as it get sticky quickly and I have to constantly wipe off the neck. As far as wood is concerned, I love the sound of the solid ash body of my LTD. I swear that Korean made puppy is the best sound in my axe quiver. It has great sustain and rich warm tone. With my new P-rails it is definitley the most versatile of my axes.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

If anything the thick finish would make it sound duller, not brighter.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

uOpt said:
If anything the thick finish would make it sound duller, not brighter.
Click to expand...

My experience with strats has been just the opposite. Thinner finished strats I have owned have a warmer sound than thicker poly finishes. Denser (heavier) wood also makes for a brighter twangier sound in my experience with strats, and this Epi Les Paul is not that heavy (dense). This, and the reasons listed above, such as several other Epi Elitist models sounding like this one, leads me to believe it may be caused by the thick finish, and not the wood.

I just hate to sell a really nicely made Les Paul at a loss if all thats holding it back is a thick finish. I would not be able to touch even a used Gibson for what I would get, and I don't want to trade down in build quality for a regular Epi.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

Thick finish usually makes them sound congested, not bright. However thin finish will open a guitar up.

African Mahogany also no sound like Honduras Mahogany. It usually is brighter and has less lows, somehwere between Honduras and Alder.

Your pup choices baffle me-All bright and/or high mid focused- def NOT what you want. Going to 300K pots just makes thems ound thinner (though taming high end too)

Also, stock grover style tuners?

My Suggestion is to put a couple of really thick and not so bright pups with 500K pots. Rio Grande BBQ/TX. Super Distortion/PAF.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

JeffB said:
Your pup choices baffle me-All bright and/or high mid focused- def NOT what you want. Going to 300K pots just makes thems ound thinner (though taming high end too)

My Suggestion is to put a couple of really thick and not so bright pups with 500K pots. Rio Grande BBQ/TX. Super Distortion/PAF.
Click to expand...

If Seths and JB/PGates are bright, what in the Duncan lineup would not be bright?

I had a Super Distortion for a while and did not like it. Sorry, I know a lot of you do, but....

I've never really strayed from Duncan/Dimarzio/Fender/Gibson pickup lines to any of the smaller manufacturers lineups to know enough to pick a good one.

Besides, the guitar imparts the same character to EVERY pickup set I put in it, so I don't think changing pickups one more time help. I love the same pickup sets I've tried in this LP in my other guitars.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

Mr. B said:
Besides, the guitar imparts the same character to EVERY pickup set I put in it, so I don't think changing pickups one more time help. I love the same pickup sets I've tried in this LP in my other guitars.
Click to expand...
I think you should try different pots. 300 or 250k.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

What kind of amp?

And yes, Duncans are bright- as a line of pickups they are bright in the general sense. Bad news for a bright trebly guitar unless you wanna use the Invader.

But no doubt you could just have a crap piece of wood. It happens. Personally, if a guitar is not pretty darn good sounding right out of the gate before a pup swap, I never end up liking it no matter what goes into it. Some things may be better than others, but you can only do so much with pups.

I'd try Rio Grandes as a last resort. BBQ bridge/TX neck. They are super thick/big/warm hot rod PAF types (BBQ is a bit hotter , like a Custom5, but bigger and thicker). Not like VPAFS or 59s or anything. Big muscular sounding pups.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

JeffB said:
What kind of amp?

And yes, Duncans are bright- as a line of pickups they are bright in the general sense. Bad news for a bright trebly guitar unless you wanna use the Invader.

But no doubt you could just have a crap piece of wood. It happens. Personally, if a guitar is not pretty darn good sounding right out of the gate before a pup swap, I never end up liking it no matter what goes into it. Some things may be better than others, but you can only do so much with pups.

I'd try Rio Grandes as a last resort. BBQ bridge/TX neck. They are super thick/big/warm hot rod PAF types (BBQ is a bit hotter , like a Custom5, but bigger and thicker). Not like VPAFS or 59s or anything. Big muscular sounding pups.
Click to expand...

I agree. Pickups are just the icing on the cake. If you dont get in the ballpark of what you like, a pickup is most likely not the first thing to change :)

Btw Jeff, check your PM Inbox :)
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

It's the guitar itself. I don't think anything you do to it is going to change it's "inherent tone."

I mean, 95% of a guitar is comprised of wood.

The wood has got to count for some percentage of the sound, wouldn't you say?
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

OK! OK! I GIVE! YOU WIN!

I'LL SAY IT !!!!!!! IT.... COULD.... BE THE WOOD! :crying:

Geez... you guys are like the Spanish Inquisition, you just don't give up.

However, even though I have now confessed that it COULD be the wood, I would still like to hear from anyone who has done what my original post asks about, which is remove a thick poly finish from a guitar.

Has anyone ever done this, and if so, what was the effect on tone?

I have finished about 6 guitars with Nitro Laquer (the last four of which turned out pretty well) but I've never stripped a poly finish down and started over.
 
Re: Thick finish ruins Les Paul Tone?

JeffB said:
What kind of amp?

I'd try Rio Grandes as a last resort. BBQ is a bit hotter , like a Custom5, but bigger and thicker. Not like VPAFS or 59s or anything. Big muscular sounding pups.
Click to expand...

The amp doesn't seem to matter. I have a Marshall TSL60, and DSL401, a Fender Blues Jr, A Peavey classic 30 and classic 20, and Vox AD60VTX, as well as a couple other smaller odds and ends.

I'm really looking to stick pretty close to classic PAF tone, although I do like a bridge that is a LITTLE hotter. The only other set I can think of that might be up my alley is a Alnico2pro neck and a Custom-Custom bridge. I just never figured they would be THAT much warmer than a Seth, or Pearly Gates set.
 
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