Thoughts on the Gibson 496r/500t

[freefrog]

If I were to have the ceramic mag of a 496R replaced to alnico 3 would that make the pickup darker? I was thinking of having that done and simply putting in a higher resistance 515k volume pot (highest I have) for the neck position to compensate

Yep, at first glance it should sound darker as Jeremy said...

Reason: A3 will/would increase the inductance and give a rounder resonant peak.

Now, as A3 will/would also cause a slight volume drop and flatten a bit the whole frequency response, the 496R might also sound clearer than with its stock mag, depending on the gear and setting used.

I've probably somewhere a few things about AlNi(Co) in a 496R. Possibly with A3: my old brain can't remember right now. "More later" about that maybe.

 

[Chistopher]

Yep, at first glance it should sound darker as Jeremy said...

Reason: A3 will/would increase the inductance and give a rounder resonant peak.

Now, as A3 will/would also cause a slight volume drop and flatten a bit the whole frequency response, the 496R might also sound clearer than with its stock mag, depending on the gear and setting used.

I've probably somewhere a few things about AlNi(Co) in a 496R. Possibly with A3: my old brain can't remember right now. "More later" about that maybe.

It's a fairly noticeable volume drop. Alnico 3 will also sound quite a bit thinner than a ceramic. A3 has a frown EQ, ceramic has a smile EQ.

Also, inductance isn't a good measure of sound on its on, just as DCR isn't. For example, you can boost the inductance of a ceramic pickup by removing the magnet entirely.

 

[freefrog]

It's a fairly noticeable volume drop. Alnico 3 will also sound quite a bit thinner than a ceramic. A3 has a frown EQ, ceramic has a smile EQ.

Also, inductance isn't a good measure of sound on its on, just as DCR isn't. For example, you can boost the inductance of a ceramic pickup by removing the magnet entirely.

I don't sacralize inductance, FWIW.

EDIT: and I won't discuss the inductance of an air coil here. But later, we can/could devote a separate topic to this subject if you will.

Regarding the output level and EQing related to alloys: I understand your perception and analogy about frown vs smile EQing and I don't disagree since more magnetic strenght effectively tends to "scoop" the EQing of a passive transducer... but in my own experience of these last decades, it may vary according to other parameters - like the size, mass and charge of the magnet(s) + other parts and alloys used in the magnetic circuit (among others and to evoke only some parms inherent to the transducer itself).

EDIT: no time to dig thousands of data files before a working day but surfing in my archives, I've found at least a test showing clearly a case of tone darkened by an A3 vs a stronger mag in a neck HB. No reason to pollute this topic with the related pic and zero desire to argue but I'll certainly share this screenshot on request.

That's precisely why my previous answer was implying that tonal results are not totally predictible. IMHO, the only real way to know how Alni 3 affects the sound of a pickup is to try it. Which makes my own posts wordy and useless. LOL.

Again, more later maybe. I'm busy right now.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Both the Custom and Distortion are WAY more articulate than the 500T. I’m not a fan and never have been. I’d prefer the Duncan Designed/Performer Detonator.

I agree in that they're more articulate. But that's kinda the charm with the 500T, IMO. It's just so dirty-sounding. Sounds like 90's metal.

Plus I don't think it's a muddy-sounding pickup per se. It's got plenty of top-end detail and brightness and is not overly stuffy in the low mids. JMO.

 

[jeremy]

i kinda doubt a3 would sound too thin in a 496r in the neck. less output than a ceramic for sure but the eq should be more balanced

 

[formula73]

I agree in that they're more articulate. But that's kinda the charm with the 500T, IMO. It's just so dirty-sounding. Sounds like 90's metal.

Plus I don't think it's a muddy-sounding pickup per se. It's got plenty of top-end detail and brightness and is not overly stuffy in the low mids. JMO.

I hear mud-city. Always have.

 

[rainsong86]

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I've probably somewhere a few things about AlNi(Co) in a 496R. Possibly with A3: my old brain can't remember right now. "More later" about that maybe.

That was probably me because I'd been planning this for a year in a clownburst 95 Classic Plus that came with a shorted 496R in the case. Currently has a Dawgtown alnico II 58 which sounds fantastic with 500k pots. But I like the idea of restoring the 496R with the current mag used by Gibson 'custombuckers' and having the 500T in the bridge. I'm going after the Adam Jones Signature sound and might even install the neck pup backwards.

Yep, at first glance it should sound darker as Jeremy said...

Reason: A3 will/would increase the inductance and give a rounder resonant peak.

Now, as A3 will/would also cause a slight volume drop and flatten a bit the whole frequency response, the 496R might also sound clearer than with its stock mag, depending on the gear and setting used.

I've probably somewhere a few things about AlNi(Co) in a 496R. Possibly with A3: my old brain can't remember right now. "More later" about that maybe.

I will definitely let you guys know how it goes. Also.. there are not enough PICTURES in this forum haha

 

[rainsong86]

I hear mud-city. Always have.

If you've only tried it in the stock guitar it came in that may be why? Gibson was putting those in guitars back when they used 300k volume pots almost exclusively

 

[formula73]

If you've only tried it in the stock guitar it came in that may be why? Gibson was putting those in guitars back when they used 300k volume pots almost exclusively

Not in my 01 67RI V. I wish I still had that thing, pickups be damned. Great player.

 

[Inflames626]

For the record, the output of passive pickups is always relative anyway, since it depends not only on height settings but also on pots resistance, cable capacitance, input impedance of the first host and so on.

Regarding DCR, let's keep in mind that a same number of turns in a coil with different wire gauges will provide the same inductance but a higher resistance with the thinner wire, giving actually a lower output from the highest DCR... if you wind a PAF clone with 4506 turns per coil, the whole PU will measure around 9.14k with AWG43 vs 7.43k with AWG42 but the one wound with 43 will be sligthly weaker.

About "the" 496R: my archives mention a measured inductance of +/-4.8H (vs 7.8H for a a 500T) and a moderate magnetism when measured at the surface of the poles - while the same readings on a 500T show a magnetism almost 3 times higher than with a "normal" HB, hence the very high output.
The warm tone of a 496R appears to depend a bit on the alloys choosen for the magnetic poles and mainly on a very high stray capacitance, giving a low pitched resonant peak...

FWIW - a mere attempt to share, as usual. I whish you all a nice day.

Wow, my thread kind of blew up in my absence. Thanks so much for an excellent post freefrog .

I don't hear mud with either pickup. I hear evenness, maybe even blandness, with 500k pots. Although I'm aware Gibson used 300k pots I have never used them or seen the point in doing so save vintage authenticity.

I can attest to the strong magnets of the 500t, freefrog, because as I was working with the soldering iron on the Triple Shot I had to struggle quite a bit to keep the magnet from pulling on the iron and ruining my solder joints.

All I thought was, "Damn this magnet is strong."

Regarding commentary about the Distortion and Custom being more articulate, I would say maybe the Custom, but not the Distortion. Maybe the Distortion is on high notes, but with that pickup most of what I hear is treble and presence--fizz.

To my ear the 500t lacked that, but again I only played it clean through a 1986 Peavey Solo 1x8" so I could get a sense of how the pickups sound without distortion.

Overall I'm pleased, but again, I'm finding no one brand is better than any other. I would prefer these Gibsons over something like an Invader. But I would prefer the Full Shred/Parallel Axis models over some of the Gibsons. It really is a case by case basis for me.

 

[jeremy]

i find hot pups dont usually sound great through small amps like that. slams the front end too hard and the speaker folds under the pressure

 

[rainsong86]

Overall I'm pleased, but again, I'm finding no one brand is better than any other. I would prefer these Gibsons over something like an Invader. But I would prefer the Full Shred/Parallel Axis models over some of the Gibsons. It really is a case by case basis for me.

I've got a guitar on the way that someone installed Fralin's "high output humbucker" set. Seems on topic to these other types of pickups talked about so I'll post how they sound in here

 

[Seashore]

i find hot pups dont usually sound great through small amps like that. slams the front end too hard and the speaker folds under the pressure

That's interesting. Both my heads are 100W and I play them through reasonably capable cabinets, albeit mostly at low volumes at home these days. I was just thinking about how higher output pickups seem to work better with my setup - not like Warpig high, I tried one of those and it was too much - but there seems to be some kind of tonal sweet spot with a hotter pickup into my amps that I can't find with lower output pickups no matter how much I fiddle with input gain. I get there with a boost sometimes, but it always seems to have a less dynamic and complex sound when I do that. Keeping in mind that this is just me, always in search of a particular kind of crunch. I wonder if I'd find more fun sounds with lower output pickups into a smaller amp and speaker.

 

[jeremy]

i was referring to the 1x8" amp mentioned, i find well made 100w amps are some of the most responsive beasts out there but many have a sweet spot that is way too loud for many people to gig with

 

[Inflames626]

The reason for my using such a small, old amp was convenience. I do all my guitar work at my kitchen table. My proper tone is in my DAW in another room.

The Peavey just died yesterday, as a matter of fact. It did emit random bursts of static, but it now emits a dial tone like sound and does not respond to inputs.

Peavey could probably fix it as they used to be close by here, but as they don't do much in Meridian, MS anymore and it would cost more to ship and fix than the amp is worth I'll just junk the amp.

I will probably just get a small belt clip amp to test that my solder joints are good and my pickups are working. I'll then take it to the DAW for a proper play through.

 

[Seashore]

i was referring to the 1x8" amp mentioned, i find well made 100w amps are some of the most responsive beasts out there but many have a sweet spot that is way too loud for many people to gig with

Yes, I understood, I was just wondering if I might actually get some mileage out of lower output pickups into a good low-watt amp for practice. I've got a VHT Pittbull 100 CL and a Traynor YGL-3 Mark III - very different heads, but both with a good enough master volume to give me solid recording tones at apartment volumes. I always figured there was no point to a "smaller" amp since I can just turn the bigger ones down, but maybe that's wrong. Also maybe helps explain my preference for high output pickups? I dunno. Thinking while I type, I guess.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yeah, honestly, muddy is the last thing I think of with the 500T.

Dirty? Yes. Aggressive? Yes. Over the top? Maybe. But definitely not muddy.

Yes, it's got its own thing going on, but in the grand scheme of things (compared to something entirely different like a PAF or something), it's honestly not THAT far off from a Distortion. Or a Custom, even if it contradicts my previous statement.

 

[rainsong86]

Got a NGD with this pickup set. At first I thought they were a little dark. So I checked the control cavity and saw that it had 500k pots.. so no problem there. But then I realised it has Graph Tech saddles... tone killers! I'll be putting the original zinc-coated brass saddles back on the ABR to bring it back to it's biting, chugging glory. Also... aren't these 3 ground wires I red X'd redundant since it's on a grounding control plate? It has push/pull tone pots installed that seem to be splitting to the slug coils.. didn't know a Gibson 95 Classic would come stock with 496r/500t that are 4 conductor.

 

[fretburner]

The 500T 496R is my 2nd fave Gibson pair (my fave is a set of BB Pros)

Awesome combo for hard rock to metal.

Added bonus: NOT picky on the guitar. Sounds really great regardless which guitar you drop it in.

Sent from my 2201116PG using Tapatalk

 

[Inflames626]

Update on this one guys: not sure if this counts as a zombie thread yet but just to clarify:

The guitar IS an Epiphone Explorer Gothic for sure. Guitar Center sold it to me used and mislabeled it as a Futura. However, the upper part (where the upper horn would be on a Strat) is just like an Explorer's whereas on the Futura it has that ridiculous elongated look to look, well, "futuristic."

Thoughts on this guitar after modding:
1) The stock bridge, again, is great. Pretty sure it is a rebranded Schaller with a zinc block. A Schaller OFR will be required if you retrofit as the bridge route is very, very small.

2) The bridge pickup route is very shallow. Long legged Gibson style pickups will be very hard to fit in there without riding high and may interfere with your Floyd Rose pullups by causing the strings to hit the bridge pickup. The neck pickup route is extremely deep by comparison for some reason.

3) For some reason Epi puts in linear pots for volume and audio for tone, but you do get a .047 cap stock if that's your preference. I have already swapped all these out as stated earlier in the thread.

Above all if you can find any of the Epi Gothic line from the 00s-10s I think they are really great playing (and looking) guitars. Unlike similar lines like the Ibanez Iron Labels, they are full featured and not missing neck pickups and other ridiculous design decisions.