To blackface or to not

[Robert Delahunt]

All,

Sort of a newbie question: is blackfacing required for changing tubes on a Twin Reverb from 1972? I'm wondering because I was told, can't remember who told me, that if you buy matched Fender or other matched pairs / sets of tubes, that you should be able to swap them right in and go. Is this true? If not, who would you trust to blackface a silverface amp? I'm on the Florida panhandle and I'd probably have to take a road trip just to take the amp somewhere I'd trust.

 

[Gunny47]

Re: To blackface or to not

Hell, if you got the cash, do it anyway!! I heard from many people that it gave their silverfaces killer results. That's of course if you got the money and want to do it. And yea, you definitely do not need to blackface it to get the tubes changed, that guy who told you that was probably trying to rob you.... Good luck with it anyway.

 

[B Bent]

Re: To blackface or to not

You don't have to BF the amp in order to change tubes.

Playing my Vibrolux the 1st time after getting it Blackfaced was absolutely a religious experience.

Like Chops said ,Blackfacing an amp refers to taking a Silverface amp back to specs of an amp from a few years prior to when your amp was made. After CBS bought Fender the engineers thought it would be a good idea to mess with the circuits and tweak a few things and to go for a more modern (silver) faceplate design.

Most of the earlier SF Fenders don't sound terrible by any means, especially the one's like yours that are way before the master volume, push/pull gain boost, and Ultra Linear ones.

To be honest BFing really isn't terribly expensive especially when you hear the before and after difference. Trust me my 1975 Vibrolux was bone stock other than new tubes and speakers and i used to swear it didn't need anything because it sounded so amazing.

Finally I forked out the cheese and had a cap job (which I'll bet if yours has never had one it WILL need one for sure) and had it brought to Blackface spec.

The end result is that I could never have been proven more wrong in my life. i thought it needed nothing more, but afterwards I thought it was the best $280 I had ever spent on gear.

BTW I highly recommend the SED Winged C 6L6's.
They are great power tubes.

NOW GO GET SOME GOOD SPEAKERS AND HAVE A CAP JOB AND BF MODS!!! YOU WILL BE AMAZED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: To blackface or to not

Hell, if you got the cash, do it anyway!! I heard from many people that it gave their silverfaces killer results. That's of course if you got the money and want to do it. And yea, you definitely do not need to blackface it to get the tubes changed, that guy who told you that was probably trying to rob you.... Good luck with it anyway.

TR typically uses his amp just as a poweramp for a floor effects unit. He never really drives it to break up.

Blackfacing it would be a pointless exercise for him.

 

[B Bent]

Re: To blackface or to not

TR typically uses his amp just as a poweramp for a floor effects unit. He never really drives it to break up.

Blackfacing it would be a pointless exercise for him.

I disagree. Doesn't TR play at church? If so I am just gonna tell you right now that if he is in fact playing it at church he will not be able to turn that amp up anywhere near the point of breakup which still leads me to stand by my idea that he should still have the mod done if he chooses. Matter of fact I am willing to bet right now that in the church environment he never takes that amp over 3.5 which, even if BF'd, will not start breaking up.

In the end it really doesn't matter to me either way. I know that it seems like I am pushing my agenda which may very well be the case, but it's done with good intentions. I am glad that I had people riding my butt to do mine!!

 

[liquidtension]

Re: To blackface or to not

I'm no amp expert, and most of the time there has to be a real obvious difference for me to notice (I usually need a side-by-side comparison). With that said, I was amazed at B Bent's amp when he got it back. Apart from the whole breaking up earlier thing, it is much more punchy and really hits you in the chest. I really liked what I heard...and felt. I'd say do it.

 

[B Bent]

Re: To blackface or to not

I'm no amp expert, and most of the time there has to be a real obvious difference for me to notice (I usually need a side-by-side comparison). With that said, I was amazed at B Bent's amp when he got it back. Apart from the whole breaking up earlier thing, it is much more punchy and really hits you in the chest. I really liked what I heard...and felt. I'd say do it.

Wow! hey bro. i didn't know you would be learking around here.

My amp will is more noticeable in the break up area than a Twin just because of the wattage and design differences. It still isn't really overdriving that much though. It is not even clean with hair IMO it's more of a punch.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: To blackface or to not

If you really really dig the reverb on your silverface, dont' blackface it. Often folks will complain that the reverb sounded better before the mod. Just some food for thought.

If you love the tone now, leave it alone.

Your preamp tubes are plug and play. Just stick to the same general values 12AX7 where appropriate, 12AT7 where appropriate. new power tubes have to be biased to get the most out of them.

 

[B Bent]

Re: To blackface or to not

If you really really dig the reverb on your silverface, dont' blackface it. Often folks will complain that the reverb sounded better before the mod. Just some food for thought.

That is some very good food indeed Scott. I was very nervous about my verb getting screwed up so I opted for him to leave it the way it was. I almost forgot about that.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: To blackface or to not

Thanks for the responses, I really appreciate you guys!

Most of the earlier SF Fenders don't sound terrible by any means, especially the one's like yours that are way before the master volume, push/pull gain boost, and Ultra Linear ones.

Mine's got only the master volume (but that thing definitely comes in handy).

I disagree. Doesn't TR play at church? If so I am just gonna tell you right now that if he is in fact playing it at church he will not be able to turn that amp up anywhere near the point of breakup which still leads me to stand by my idea that he should still have the mod done if he chooses.

Honestly, I don't take it to breakup. Once, when playing with another guitarist, I ended up bringing it to 7's on volumes (granted, the rhythm player was competing with me, and this is before I realized I had one broken speaker). I mean, if I could run a channel volume at 10 and then adjust master volume to get it to work, I could get a very tiny bit of breakup, but even then, right, usually I'm using effects. With these two new speakers, I'm thinking I won't be able to take it above 3 lol.

But yeah, Skarekrough was right, I play guitar -> ME50 -> amp -> mic -> sound board. I do bring two guitars, since I have two channels, but only when I need the "other" guitar for maybe one clean song, or in case the other guitarist shows up. I do like the tremolo on the unit, although I haven't really experimented with the reverb on it yet. I tried with it at max once for "surf" music and it did a nice job.

I've only really gigged with this amp once, although it sounded great even despite the broken speaker.

Your preamp tubes are plug and play. Just stick to the same general values 12AX7 where appropriate, 12AT7 where appropriate. new power tubes have to be biased to get the most out of them.

But if I use all Fender-branded ones, the difference is only that Fender uses tubes that come at the right value, sort of plug'n'play for all ten tubes if they're all Fender tubes, right? I think that's what the last guy did (but the tubes aren't Fender, they're Svetana), so I'm wondering. If I need a bias job, how much does that cost typically? And how will I know it needs one?

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: To blackface or to not

You can replace the preamp tubes with whatever brand you prefer as long as they are the same tube, 12ax7, 12at7 etc...

The power tubes, 6L6's in your case, can be any brand as well and I would opt for a matched quartet.

The amp should be biased, those tubes you have in there could be ancient and unmatched.....as far as price for bias I haven't had it done for awhile. I imagine a 50 dollar bill ought to cover it.

 

[B Bent]

Re: To blackface or to not

Mine's got only the master volume (but that thing definitely comes in handy).

Didn't I hear that yours is a 72? If so you have one the 1st ones with master volume.

Honestly, I don't take it to breakup. Once, when playing with another guitarist, I ended up bringing it to 7's on volumes . With these two new speakers, I'm thinking I won't be able to take it above 3 lol.

Dude I was about to say....good gosh if you are running a Twin on 7 you are LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The MV helps with that volume being 7 and a broken speaker. If those two factors weren't there I would have been SHOCKED if you were playing that at church. I have never been able to get my Lux above 3 at church.





If I need a bias job, how much does that cost typically? And how will I know it needs one?

You will need a bias adjustment if you change tubes...no getting around that. A bias reset is typically like $20-$25 around here.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: To blackface or to not

Dude I was about to say....good gosh if you are running a Twin on 7 you are LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The MV helps with that volume being 7 and a broken speaker. If those two factors weren't there I would have been SHOCKED if you were playing that at church. I have never been able to get my Lux above 3 at church.

Lol yeah, I was up to 9 in the club that time I gigged. At that volume, my ears should've been bleeding! Anyways, I'm not sure about the year. The guy I bought it from for $300 said it was a '72, etc, but I don't know for sure. I'll have someone figure out what year it was, or go grab the "dating Fender amps" book or something

 

[B Bent]

Re: To blackface or to not

Lol yeah, I was up to 9 in the club that time I gigged. At that volume, my ears should've been bleeding! Anyways, I'm not sure about the year. The guy I bought it from for $300 said it was a '72, etc, but I don't know for sure. I'll have someone figure out what year it was, or go grab the "dating Fender amps" book or something

If you have the original speakers you can get a good idea of age from those. Or if you feel comfortable dropping the chassis look on the Pots inside for a number. Post one of those numbers and I'll date your pots for ya. It will give you a good idea within a several month period of how old it is.

An example on my Lux the numbers on the pots are 1737539.

Broken down 173 is the company code for the pot manufacturer which is CTS in my case. 75 is the last two digits of the year made. 39 is for the week the pots were manufactured.

Having an older tube amp can be fun to practice this kind of stuff on.

EDIT: Also your might have the date stamped on the inside of the chasis somewhere too.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: To blackface or to not

If you have the original speakers you can get a good idea of age from those. Or if you feel comfortable dropping the chassis look on the Pots inside for a number. Post one of those numbers and I'll date your pots for ya. It will give you a good idea within a several month period of how old it is.

An example on my Lux the numbers on the pots are 1737539.

Broken down 173 is the company code for the pot manufacturer which is CTS in my case. 75 is the last two digits of the year made. 39 is for the week the pots were manufactured.

Having an older tube amp can be fun to practice this kind of stuff on.

EDIT: Also your might have the date stamped on the inside of the chasis somewhere too.

Cool thanks, when I open up the cab to get at the speakers, I'll try to remember to open the head and take some pictures.

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: To blackface or to not

Lol yeah, I was up to 9 in the club that time I gigged. At that volume, my ears should've been bleeding! Anyways, I'm not sure about the year. The guy I bought it from for $300 said it was a '72, etc, but I don't know for sure. I'll have someone figure out what year it was, or go grab the "dating Fender amps" book or something

Try here to get the date of thet Twin.

http://www.fender.com/support/dating/amp_dating.php

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: To blackface or to not

Try here to get the date of thet Twin.

http://www.fender.com/support/dating/amp_dating.php

606-2-17 stamped on transformer

In the absence of a tube location chart with rubber-stamped date codes, EIA numbers taken from the transformers may allow you to determine the date of production of your amp. These numbers always begin with "606", and are followed by three or four digits in various combinations. If three digits are present, the first digit would refer the units of the year i.e. ("7" would mean 1967). If four digits are present, the first two digits refer to the year i.e. ("66" would mean 1966). The last two digits would refer to the week of the year i.e. ("26" would mean the 26th week or approximately June). Here is an example: EIA 606-4-21 would mean the 21st week of 1964. It is also advisable to add about 6 months to the date to allow for time these parts may have spent in inventory storage.

So I guess mine is made May 1972. Thanks guys.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: To blackface or to not

There are a lot of posts in here so far and there is also a lot of people's opinions and BS in here...

The question is this...why are you asking about Blackfacing it?.

Here is the deal with changing tubes and setting the bias in a SF Fender

CBS changed the bias circut to a different design early on during the SF era...if you have that bias circut you can chgange tubes and you can set the bias but a BF bias circut would be better.

If all you are worried about is putting new tubes in it and setting the bias go for it, if you want to Blackface the amp thats cool too...

 

[ES350]

Re: To blackface or to not

Most BF's and early SF's have a date stamped inside the chassis between the bias pot and the output tube sockets...this is the assembly date, not the date of a pot, transformers, or speakers that can lay around in parts stock for a year or two. If it's a '72, you could definitely get some more sparkle out of it with removing/replacing some parts in the PI, output section, maybe even on the preamp tubes...they added a bunch of small snubber caps to prevent oscillation (due to bad lead dress) sometime around late '69-70.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: To blackface or to not

There are a lot of posts in here so far and there is also a lot of people's opinions and BS in here...

Christian, will you explain to me which is which, so I can learn? Thanks.

TR, in my experience, and if my understanding is right, you will NEED to re-bias. Could you just put the new power tubes in there and turn it on? Yes. However, the bias could be set too cold for the new tubes or to hot. Each set of tubes needs the bias optimized.