TRUSS Issue,,, how would YOU Spell Relief??

[zozoe]

G'evnin' all~ Lotsa folks have trust issues, but I have a truss issue,, nothing too serious or something a shim couldn't remedy, BUT I want to get a touch more bow to the neck. This is a '71 Harmony Marquis, (strangely similar to the then future Fender Lead) and that piece resting on top, is the bolt that screws on to that exposed truss,and as you turn it clockwise is definitely the wrong way, & I'm out of any room to create just a touch of some bow. So, before I get really daring and get the vice grips out to try to nudge the truss, my gut tells me to turn it counterclockwise, but I can do everything but necks & frets, other than a slight truss adjust on my Breedlove 12 strings,,,, So, before I take on this task, which direction would I turn that exposed truss, again, to add an ever so slight bow? Anything else I should attempt to try to get me to the same place?

Many that in advance, stay safe & be well all~
Kenny

 

[Chris Pile]

If you posted pix, they ain't showing up. And shims don't adjust relief. Relief is the curve of the fingerboard, not the height of the strings from the neck.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Are you trying to add or remove relief? Tightening the rod (clockwise) decreases relief.

As for cranking on a truss rod that’s maxed out, ask the bass neck with the broken truss in my basement how that turns out.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Turning a trussrod adjusting bolt clockwise reduces any bow in the neck and reduces relief. If you want more bow you need to turn it counterclockwise. This reduces the tension on the truss rod and allows the strings to pull the nut end of the neck forward creating a bow. Don't force the truss with pliers, you can strip the threads or even worse, as JB_From_Hell has indicated.

 

[nexion218]

Could it be that it has a single action truss rod? If I understand right you want more relief and single a tion rods only straighten, do not introduce bow (I hope I am not mistaken...). So if it's loosened all the way, maybe some heavier strings could exert a bit more pull on the neck to introduce a little more relief.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Could it be that it has a single action truss rod? If I understand right you want more relief and single a tion rods only straighten, do not introduce bow (I hope I am not mistaken...). So if it's loosened all the way, maybe some heavier strings could exert a bit more pull on the neck to introduce a little more relief.

The OP indicates that he has turned it all the way clockwise, if I read it correctly, and is considering turning it counterclockwise (which will loosen the rod). Even if it is a single action rod, this will give it some bow. If loosening the rod doesn't get enough relief, and it is a single action rod, putting a little external force on the neck should help...push down in the middle of the neck while pulling up at the nut end of the neck.

 

[GuitarDoc]

If you posted pix, they ain't showing up. And shims don't adjust relief. Relief is the curve of the fingerboard, not the height of the strings from the neck.

The curve of the fingerboard/neck is the bow. Greater bow can create more relief by increasing the height of the strings. "Relief" is NOT the curve/bow of the neck. "Relief" IS the height of the strings from the frets/fretboard...which can be increased by increasing the bow. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

 

[Chris Pile]

NOPE.

 

[NegativeEase]

The curve of the fingerboard/neck is the bow. Greater bow can create more relief by increasing the height of the strings. "Relief" is NOT the curve/bow of the neck. "Relief" IS the height of the strings from the frets/fretboard...which can be increased by increasing the bow. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

Relief is the curvature applied to the neck itself -which is the deviation from a plane created by the truss rod., The string height is just a straight line relative to the relief which makes for a convenient place to make a judgement of the convex neck curvature versus the fixed string plane, Because both points (nut and bridge) can be changed, the string plane versus the neck relief should be used as a quick, convenient gauge for truss rod adjustment relative to the original neck relief position and not as an independent fixed plane -for that, you would use a straight edge from the along the face of the neck/frets.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

The curve of the fingerboard/neck is the bow. Greater bow can create more relief by increasing the height of the strings. "Relief" is NOT the curve/bow of the neck. "Relief" IS the height of the strings from the frets/fretboard...which can be increased by increasing the bow. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

If I adjust my neck to be perfectly straight, then raise my bridge as high as it will go, would that be a lot of or a little relief?

 

[Mincer]

Well, I got my terms all mixed up. I always used the term 'relief' to describe the distance between the middle of the neck and the bottom of the strings. I need to look at my Dan Erlewine books again. To be fair, I'd never call myself a repair person, although I did it professionally at a store for a few years. I know enough to do very common repairs. When it got to serious woodworking, I had a backup that handled that.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

It’s the measure of the bow in the neck. .010” means there’s a gap that size between the 7th or 8th fret when you put a straight edge across the frets.

If this is incorrect, then basically everyone who describes relief is using it incorrectly.

 

[Chris Pile]

It's the measure of the bow in the neck........ If this is incorrect, then basically everyone who describes relief is using it incorrectly.

Preach it, brother.

 

[nexion218]

I believe everyone's right here. When we measure relief, we do measure the distance of the top of fret and the bottom of string at the halfway point of the neck. But that distance is created by the bow of the neck, thus when assessing the relief, we make a measurement between the string and fret which indirectly describes the curvature of the neck.

 

[nexion218]

Because both points (nut and bridge) can be changed, .

And that's why I use a capo at the 1st fret and fret the string where the neck meets the body (usually aroind 17-18th fret), then measure at around the 7-8th, which is around thenhalfway point
(Well, I actually manage this without capo: I use my left index as a capo, then fret with right pinky and hold the gauge and measure with right thumb and index, but you get the idea.)

 

[GuitarDoc]

NOPE.

Why would you say "nope"?!

 

[GuitarDoc]

Maybe you didn't understand my post.
Maybe it's just semantics.
Maybe I didn't clarify enough by not including the point of the strings touching the frets at the first fret and where the neck meets the body in order to get the measurement of relief.

"Relief" is a measurement.
"Bow" is a curve. The amount of bow/curve can create more or less relief.
The amount of bow/curve can be measured as stated above by placing a straight edge across the frets or by using the strings as the straight edge. This measurement of the amount of bow...the distance from fret to straight edge/strings is the relief. That's why I said a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square...the bow creates (or diminishes) relief, but it is not relief...relief is the distance from the frets to the strings under these circumstances.

Nexion got it in post #14. Mincer in post #11 and JB in post #12 also got it correct...relief is the measurement of the fret to the string. Again, the bow can create relief.

"Relief" is different than "action". In response to JB's post #10, raising the bridge doesn't affect "relief", but it will increase the "action". Also using a higher nut won't affect relief but it can create a higher action.

Clear now?
Everybody happy?

 

[JB_From_Hell]

I think you’re correct in that it’s semantics.

I would not describe relief as the distance between the frets and the string, because that’s also how one would describe action.

 

[nexion218]

I think you’re correct in that it’s semantics.

I would not describe relief as the distance between the frets and the string, because that’s also how one would describe action.

The difference is under which condition it is measured. Open, unfretted string->action, fretted at first and where the neck meets the body->relief. I think...

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Right. If everybody understands that the string is being used as a straight edge, all good. If you just say “distance from the string to the fret” without mentioning that it’s held down at two specific points, it sounds like you’re describing the action.