Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

[Derpottsie]

Im thinking about changing out the stock preamp tubes of my dsl40c. I find myself rolling back the treble quite far the keep it from sounding brittle. Maybe around the 10:00 position.

The gain sounds very loose I guess and Im not a fan of pedal distortions so maybe there is something I can do to make it tighter and more saturated without loads of hum?

The mids are great. Im running Gibson SG standards loaded with Alt 8 pups so it cuts through and sounds nice and warm and tight as far as the guitar itself goes.

I was also planning on changing the 70/80 celestion out for a celestion heritage so Im sure thatll help make the distortion a bit tighter and a little more warm.

But as far as tubes go Im hoping to get in the ballpark of "A budget Friedman tone" if you will. Nice saturated but very tight distortion and controlled highs with BIG and FULL mids and lows. Any suggestions?

Sorry if this sounds choppy and unclear

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[GilmourD]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

The 70/80 is a good portion of that brittleness that you hear. Sweetwater had a run of the DSL40C made for them with a Celestion G12M-65 Creamback and I hear that it's an incredible improvement.

A Celestion Heritage of either the M or H variety won't have enough handling power to take the full 40 clean watts (which the amp exceeds when pushing the volume north of 5). You wouldn't want to spend all that money and blow a speaker.

As for tubes... Normally I suggest the JJ ECC803S in V1, but in a combo a long-plate tube like that tends to get microphonic. There's the mid-plate ECC83MG that should play nice in V1 and tighten things up without being muddier like the regular ECC83S (which I do like in Fenders). Watch out for Tung-Sol reissue tubes in any amp with a cathode follower position (V3 is the CF that feeds the tone stack). Other than that, buy whatever 12AX7-type tubes that you can afford and "tube roll". Whatever combination works for one person might not work for another.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Change the speaker out before doing much in the way of tube rolling. It will make a far greater impact. 70/80s are so-so speakers and sound much better in a closed back cab and broken in for a whole heap of hours.

A g12-65 Heritage would be the way I go in the combo cab. Either creamback works well (used them both) and so does a v30. The heritage g12-65 and the Creamback M65 would be the best all arounders for classic Marshall crunchiness.

 

[ken361]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Here is your problem that your bias is prb too high my tech set it at 30 you might of read this before, since I been using the ET65 and was using the WGS british lead and now 2 1/2 years later im thinking to try a brighter speaker again. I have plenty of bass now and keep it at 3 and the resonance! So I stuck the 70/80 back in brand new and I was surprised how much warmer it was and less harsh! dont need it 36 or 38

 

[ken361]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Had 50 hrs on my ET65 and 5 hrs on th celestion and holds right up to it,amp break in prb helped too

 

[Derpottsie]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Here is your problem that your bias is prb too high my tech set it at 30 you might of read this before, since I been using the ET65 and was using the WGS british lead and now 2 1/2 years later im thinking to try a brighter speaker again. I have plenty of bass now and keep it at 3 and the resonance! So I stuck the 70/80 back in brand new and I was surprised how much warmer it was and less harsh! dont need it 36 or 38

Its been biased at 34 which I thought was a little high. Thats a great point there. I went ahead and put a g12H-75 in there and whooaa what a difference. I bought the speaker prebroken in with about 40 hours played on it so its pretty much ready. I might have to have it biased some more to see the official reading since this is the first amp I've truly grown to love even with its minor minor flaws

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[ken361]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

According to Scumback speakers which they do there own break in at the factory, he said if you play 2 to 3 hrs every day it will be broken in 2 to 3 months so thats like a 120 hrs! My tech been in the business for 35 years and worked on many of the south MI amps and prb the pro's too. He believes that you keep it set low is because its mostly preamp distortion and having it hot causes more heat in the chassis and causes more problems that keeps him in business thats what he said I dont have any more gain then when if was set higher but have more low end it seems and nicer top end.

 

[ken361]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Prb use the ET for or the 70/80 in a extra cab they complement each other

 

[dystrust]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Here is your problem that your bias is prb too high my tech set it at 30 you might of read this before, since I been using the ET65 and was using the WGS british lead and now 2 1/2 years later im thinking to try a brighter speaker again. I have plenty of bass now and keep it at 3 and the resonance! So I stuck the 70/80 back in brand new and I was surprised how much warmer it was and less harsh! dont need it 36 or 38

Its been biased at 34 which I thought was a little high. Thats a great point there. I went ahead and put a g12H-75 in there and whooaa what a difference. I bought the speaker prebroken in with about 40 hours played on it so its pretty much ready. I might have to have it biased some more to see the official reading since this is the first amp I've truly grown to love even with its minor minor flaws

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Do you know what the plate voltage on the 40C is? I like my Marshall Jubilee best @ 36ma per tube while Gearjoneser & LakePlacidBlues prefer theirs at 38. I've heard that Jubilees run rather high plate voltage so it may not be apples to apples, but my amp is playable at 34 and sounds horrible at 30.

 

[Derpottsie]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Do you know what the plate voltage on the 40C is? I like my Marshall Jubilee best @ 36ma per tube while Gearjoneser & LakePlacidBlues prefer theirs at 38. I've heard that Jubilees run rather high plate voltage so it may not be apples to apples, but my amp is playable at 34 and sounds horrible at 30.

Its at 34 right now. Theres absolutely no clarity when I strum a chord or drone a note and carry a scale. Maybe I just need to break in the creamback a little more but still I should be able to hear each individual string in a chord. Just sounds like a loose mess. Not sure how to go about solving this problem

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[dystrust]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Its at 34 right now. Theres absolutely no clarity when I strum a chord or drone a note and carry a scale. Maybe I just need to break in the creamback a little more but still I should be able to hear each individual string in a chord. Just sounds like a loose mess. Not sure how to go about solving this problem

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How loud are you playing? Unless it's cranked or something is wrong with it, I doubt the power amp is affecting your overall tone all that much. How much gain are you running, and what tubes are in the preamp? Higher-gain master volume amps generate around 80% of their tone in the preamp.

Going back to my Jubilee as an example, it doesn't much care what power amp tubes I use unless I'm playing louder than the voice of god. Preamp tubes make a much bigger difference, and I absolutely love the Tung-Sol I'm currently rocking in V1. I also have a Jet City JCA22H that used to be fizzy and plagued with a general lack of clarity. Swapping out the OEM mystery Chinese 12AX7s for EHs was a vast improvement, and I'm thinking a pair of JJs may be even better.

 

[Derpottsie]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Im playing most of the time in the 10:00 position on full power mode in lead 2 with the gain at about 9:00 and a tube screamer just barely dialed in at maybe 2 or 3. A little more boost is coming from a boss eq pedal. The eq helps a lot but it adds a hell of a lot of hum

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[ken361]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Is the jub mostly preamp distortion? The dsl and some other amps I was told they dont need it hot, mine was 475 or so

 

[dystrust]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Im playing most of the time in the 10:00 position on full power mode in lead 2 with the gain at about 9:00 and a tube screamer just barely dialed in at maybe 2 or 3. A little more boost is coming from a boss eq pedal. The eq helps a lot but it adds a hell of a lot of hum

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At those settings, I'd be looking at preamp tubes before power amp tubes or bias settings. Based on your tone description, I'm guessing that the stock preamp tubes are Chinese. If you can afford it, but a bunch of quality 12AX7s and see what you like in each slot. Since you're having fizz issues, JJ ECC83s would be a good bet in V1 & V2. I usually use a Sovtek or EH for a cathode follower (V3), while I really like a Sovtek 12AX7LPS as a phase inverter (V4 in your amp). If you go the tube rolling route, avoid using a Tung-Sol in V3 as that tube doesn't last well as a cathode follower.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Is the jub mostly preamp distortion? The dsl and some other amps I was told they dont need it hot, mine was 475 or so

I prefer to run mine that way, and my plate voltage is also in the 450-475 range (can't remember exactly). It sounds pretty good at onset of power amp clipping, but starts to get really compressed and lacking in clarity with the power amp really working.

As far as bias preferences, I use a multimeter to get in the ballpark and then adjust by ear. I find that my amp gets to be too fat / bassy above 36ma, while it gets bright and thin below about 33.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Im playing most of the time in the 10:00 position on full power mode in lead 2 with the gain at about 9:00 and a tube screamer just barely dialed in at maybe 2 or 3. A little more boost is coming from a boss eq pedal. The eq helps a lot but it adds a hell of a lot of hum

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This is often a problem of high gain amps. It will sound thin and loose and maybe too bright with lower gain settings. It fills out at higher gain settings but it might be way too much gain and maybe loose. I read how the Warren Haynes mod on the Soldano amps came about as told by Warren. Warren called up Mike Soldano and complained that he could not get enough bottom in the sound. Mike replied that was impossible and asked him where he set the preamp. Warren said about 2.5 to 3 (9:00). Then it all made sense. At low gain settings most of the signal is passing through gain pot by-pass cap (bright cap). The mod made it possible to get a fuller tighter tone at lower gain settings by being able to take the bright cap out of the circuit. Bright cap mods are common on DSL amps.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

Im playing most of the time in the 10:00 position on full power mode in lead 2 with the gain at about 9:00 and a tube screamer just barely dialed in at maybe 2 or 3. A little more boost is coming from a boss eq pedal. The eq helps a lot but it adds a hell of a lot of hum

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That's your problem

Red 2 is a muddy mess, rolling the gain knob lower doesn't clear it up and adding midrangey tubescreamer compounds it (as do the stock preamp tubes).

Trying different pre-amp tubes will help, but for me the only thing that made Red channel usable was the c19 mod. Even then R2 is still too thick to get clarity in full chords. Red1 is much more usable after the mod.

I have had mine biased from 32-38. Dropping it to 30 is not going to help cure your problem.

If you do not want to mess with c19, you are better off using the eq and ts on red1 , or just boosting green crunch- which still works out better than the red channel does with the c19 mod.

 

[Derpottsie]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

That's your problem

Red 2 is a muddy mess, rolling the gain knob lower doesn't clear it up and adding midrangey tubescreamer compounds it (as do the stock preamp tubes).

Trying different pre-amp tubes will help, but for me the only thing that made Red channel usable was the c19 mod. Even then R2 is still too thick to get clarity in full chords. Red1 is much more usable after the mod.

I have had mine biased from 32-38. Dropping it to 30 is not going to help cure your problem.

If you do not want to mess with c19, you are better off using the eq and ts on red1 , or just boosting green crunch- which still works out better than the red channel does with the c19 mod.

R2 really is a muddy mess but its the only channel I can get any kind of body out of. With the gain rolled back and the tube screamer pushing it, its not too terrible. But it absolutely does kill the clarity. Clean crunch with the tube screamer driving it harder or if I use the diezel distortion sounds amazing but only on the full 40 watt mode with the volume at 12:00. Which I cant always play at that volume sadly. I should probably pick up a nice bedroom 5w amp. Something I can actually dime 100% of the time to hear the full tube tone

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[JeffB]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

The c19 mod will give both red modes more body, less fizz and clarity without sounding so small and thin. I waited 2 years to do it, and wish I had not. Red1 ends up sounding like a modded 800. Bright and crunchy and you can roll up the bass and resonance to beef it up. Red2 is still thick, but not as fuzzy/buzzy/farty. Its a good thick single note lead tone. The gain control is more usable, though still I use Red1 with the gain about 11 oclock when I do.

You can either clip out c19 all together, or replace it with a different value. Different rigs and ears like different things. It will void any warranty if you have it still.

But yeah, dsl40 needs volume to sound good. I don't think it sounds worth a damn until you get to 11oclock + on the master. Better off with a modeller or ss.

 

[Derpottsie]

Re: Tube upgrade for Marshall dsl40c

The c19 mod will give both red modes more body, less fizz and clarity without sounding so small and thin. I waited 2 years to do it, and wish I had not. Red1 ends up sounding like a modded 800. Bright and crunchy and you can roll up the bass and resonance to beef it up. Red2 is still thick, but not as fuzzy/buzzy/farty. Its a good thick single note lead tone. The gain control is more usable, though still I use Red1 with the gain about 11 oclock when I do.

You can either clip out c19 all together, or replace it with a different value. Different rigs and ears like different things. It will void any warranty if you have it still.

But yeah, dsl40 needs volume to sound good. I don't think it sounds worth a damn until you get to 11oclock + on the master. Better off with a modeller or ss.

Very true I just might have to mod it then. Im not concerned with the warranty anyways so I best get to modding it now instead of 2 years later like you said. Knowing me Ill probably ditch the amp all together and drop some serious money on a friedman or a diezel if I dont correct this problem asap and avoid getting aggravated with it

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