Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

gitapik

gitapik

New member
Hey. I saw a 2009 thread regarding these tubes/valves and decided to set up a newbie rather than let the zombie loose.

I have a Port City Pearl 50w head (great, great, GREAT amp, people) and a fully modded Blues Jr (the 30w conversion makes it an excellent grab and go).

My V1 tube crapped out on the Blues Jr last spring. It was an old GT, so I went looking for and had no luck finding a new one.

I'm into very clean tones as a base for all my amps. I like to let the pedals do the dirty work. The 30w on the Blues Jr gives me lots of head room. When I cut the mids and dime the bass/treble it sounds like a mini-Twin. So fine. So the preamp tube I get has to be very clean.

A friend suggested the Tung-Sol 12AX7, so I ordered one from an online dealer. I loved it. So much so that I ordered 3 more from the same dealer and made the mistake of socking them away in a case without testing them.

Well...last night the V1 on my Pearl went out on me. First time I've had to maintain it, and I saw that he's got JJ ECC83s in there. His website suggests these for optimal performance. Seeing as I didn't have one, I put one of my spare Tung-Sols in there and, waddya know, but it's not sounding very good. At all. I gave it the pencil eraser tap test and there was, indeed, that little "ping" sound.

I tried another. Same thing. The third (and last) one was fine and the sound is good.

I wasn't too happy, but I decided to go online and check out buying some JJs for the Pearl and more Tung-Sols for the BJr. I went to the site I'd used before and checked out reviews for the Tung-Sol. Someone had had a similar experience with a lot of bad ones shipped. Said they'd refused to take the returns because the boxes had been opened (how else do you test a tube?). He said he'd never use that site dealer again.

I searched the forums for more info and found some people saying that Tung-Sols are like that, regardless of the dealers. Hit and miss when you order. The quality control leaves something to be desired.

So if you're still with me on this epic saga, here's a martini and I'm still planning on buying some JJs for the Pearl but am wondering whether to buy more Tung-Sols (from a different dealer who I know is well respected but at a higher price) or just buy a batch of JJs for both amps (they sound excellent in the Pearl).

Thanks for your time. Cheers.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

I have been able to source JJecc83s from eurotubes 5yrs back i think. One out of six was microphonic, another was about to get there too. Also got two Tungsol RIs from amplifiedparts site, both were inducing hum & with some pops here and there but the tone was great. Then got two more of these from local place & those were good, although one had slight hum and neither ones sounded as good as the earlier ones.

Since then I've tried Mullard RIs and liked those more than the JJecc83s in my rig. Give one try, its not as bright as a tungsol but not as dark as the jj 83s.

Overall, i would say you are bound to get duds once in awhile or sometimes in a row lol doesn't matter where you get them from, its unavoidable imo
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

I've never used new production Tung-Sols, but I swear by EHX 12AX7s for my Marshall Jubilee which are also made in Russia by New Sensor. In terms of quality control, I've probably bought around a dozen 12AX7s going back to fall 2001 and I've had a total of 2 that were DOA. Both were ordered from The Tube Store and were quickly replaced with no hassle, though they were in separate orders a couple years apart.

I've tried JJs in my Jubilee and they sounded awful IMO. A very different tone from the EHX with bland, overbearing mids, slightly softer highs, and looser bass. OTOH my fiancée's SVT 3Pro had JJs installed when we bought it and they sound fine there, so you may have no issues running them clean. I don't run the Marshall super hot, but it's notoriously tough on tubes and I'm definitely not playing clean most of the time.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

Many moons ago when tubes were drying up, GT got everyone's business until Ruby and JJ.

Found a thread about Ruby's here:
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?246785-ruby-tubes-are-they-ok-are-they-crap

You could get new tubes from China, since they were either still making them or started up again when they saw a market (most likely) but everyone agreed they were crap.

However, when Russian NOS Cold War-era tubes hit the market (Sovtek) they pretty much dominated until GT finally dried up.

Then suddenly Chinese tubes were da bombz and everyone who was anyone had to have one. Today, I think all you'll find are China-made tubes, and you're not getting any decent level of QC.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

DrNewcenstein said:
However, when Russian NOS Cold War-era tubes hit the market (Sovtek) they pretty much dominated until GT finally dried up.

<snip>

Today, I think all you'll find are China-made tubes, and you're not getting any decent level of QC.
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A few issues here. First of all Sovtek tubes have never been NOS, they're new production tubes made in Russia. Initially they were made in the same factories that had made tubes for the Soviet military, but I don't know if that's the case today. These days all of the New Sensor tubes such as EHX, Tung-Sol, Mullard, Genalex, Telefunken, and possibly Svetlana are made by Sovtek.

JJs OTOH are made by JJ Electronics in the Slovak Republic.

Most Chinese tubes are made by Shuguang and re-labeled by several companies as well as being OEM for many amp brands. I couldn't tell you who these companies are as I'm not into Chinese tubes and don't really follow them. I mostly stick with New Sensor / Sovtek from reputable dealers, though I'm considering sticking with JJs for the SVT 3Pro.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

I thought Sovtek started off as the company that was selling NOS Russian military surplus tubes when they upgraded to a solid state State?
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

Not a tube historian but ... The factory in St. Petersburg, Russia (SED - Svetlana Electronic Devices) that produced the Winged C tubes, I believe that they used to produce tubes for military. That factory was running for something like 100 years. Production stopped in 2012 and New Sensor now owns the naming rights to Svetlana, in the USA anyway. I think that todays Svetlana tubes are all produced in the Saratov factory in Russia along with EHX and Sovtek. New Sensor also has the rights to the Tungsol and Mullard names. Those are produced in the same factory.

There were a lot of Russian tube factories. This list is old but some of these may still be producing less common tubes ... http://www.ominous-valve.com/russtube.html
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

Thanks, guys.

Hank: Glad to/not glad to hear that you've had similar honker experiences. I don't like to think or spread bad vibes about people and the companies they represent. I do think that I'll go back to thetubestore.com again, though. Good return policy and I haven't had any clunkers when using them. They're more expensive but maybe that's why.

Thanks for the rec on the Mullards, too. Great reviews and a mid ground in tone between the JJs and Tung-Sol sounds nice, but I really do like the sound of the Tung-Sol in the Blues Jr and am more than happy with the JJs in my Pearl. And (just as importantly), they're less expensive. Daniel at Port City is known for his "attention to detail" (my wife has a less flattering description when talking about that quality in me), so getting such a great tone using an inexpensive tube like the JJ ECC83s is a serious bonus.

dystrust: A good friend of mine really loves those EHX 12AX7s. He's a Marshall and Orange guy. Les Paul plugged straight in with maybe some delay. I'm not so sure how they'd translate to my needs, though, in terms of glassy cleans. I'll stick with the Tung-Sol and JJs for now and hope for more consistency in the product, but thanks for the suggestion.

Cool that we're getting more info on tubes in general on this thread.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

You might try a Svetlana 12ax7.

Same family as EHX and Tung-Sol. Sweeter than both. The EHX is a bit more bright and crunchy/harder. Tung-sol deosnt have as much midrange complexity and has a more grainy top.

I like them all. I do like a JJ ecc83s in V1 of my orange, just cause it keeps single notes a bit thicker at lower gain settings. It gets pretty thin if the gain is below 11 oclock. EHX and Tungsol are too bright/thin. I need to try a svet here.

For my part, I cannot get along with the Mullard RI 12ax7. I have hated it in every amp, in every gain stage. Its decent as a PI, But I feel the Sovtek LPS kicks its butt in every way. I do want to try the new cv4004 RI from Mullard, which was put out specifically for guitar amps. It is my understanding the mullard 12ax7 RI is much better for hi fi equipment.

At any rate, purchase from a quality tube supplier like tube depot or the tube store to avoid crap.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

I've had the odd bad tube from jj, tung sol and EHX. It happens. Even rattling power tubes straight out of the box.
It is very annoying, and i assume all the companies test before they leave the factory, but those little glass tubes are pretty fragile. I guess some stuff gets damaged while being air freighted (or sea freighted). I reckon all the companies are pretty much on par with each other in terms of qc. It is just that tubes are consumable items and some of them don't make it to tone heaven.
Just choose the ones that have to tone curve you like best.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

I've been using Tung-Sols for about 12 years now in most of my amps. I've never had one DOA, but between being shipped from the factory in Russia to the distributor and from there to the purchaser I'm not surprised that it happens. I have had a couple fail prematurely, but only 2 or 3 out of a 50 or so in that time. Also in that time I've used a few each of EHX, Sovtek, Mesa, and Shuguang and had a few fail. I think the key is to order them from a reputable dealer like Tube Depot or the Tube Store that tests them
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

Interestingly enough, the JJ ECC83S is the one new production tube I have NOT liked. It seems completely solid as far as reliability is concerned, but to me it just sounds muffled and way too gainy. And I love high gain stuff. I recently ordered another new Mullard RI, and it's taken the V1 spot in my Jet City, and it sounds phenomenal. Ruby's 12AX7AC5 HG+ is also a great-sounding tube, and I think they really do solid testing out of the Chinese factory. Tung-Sol's are hit or miss in my experience also, and the EHX are of surprising quality for the price. If I were to go JJ, however, I would get the long-plate tube any day over the ECC83S.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

misterwhizzy said:
Interestingly enough, the JJ ECC83S is the one new production tube I have NOT liked. It seems completely solid as far as reliability is concerned, but to me it just sounds muffled and way too gainy. And I love high gain stuff. I recently ordered another new Mullard RI, and it's taken the V1 spot in my Jet City, and it sounds phenomenal. Ruby's 12AX7AC5 HG+ is also a great-sounding tube, and I think they really do solid testing out of the Chinese factory. Tung-Sol's are hit or miss in my experience also, and the EHX are of surprising quality for the price. If I were to go JJ, however, I would get the long-plate tube any day over the ECC83S.
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This is the first maintenance I've done on the Pearl and I was surprised to see the JJs in there. Not exactly a high profile tube. But it's a single channel clean amp and I really can't argue with the tone. It's incredible. I love the amp. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Even if it was broke, like in this case lol.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

JeffB said:
You might try a Svetlana 12ax7.

Same family as EHX and Tung-Sol. Sweeter than both. The EHX is a bit more bright and crunchy/harder. Tung-sol deosnt have as much midrange complexity and has a more grainy top.
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+1 to the EHX and Tung Sol comparison. I haven't tried Svets. The EHX is brighter and the Tung Sol sounds slightly more compressed and hazier on the top end. I'm not slagging the Tung Sol, because it is warmer than the EHX. It seems to slightly slur the dynamics of your playing a bit to get that warmth, though.

JeffB said:
For my part, I cannot get along with the Mullard RI 12ax7. I have hated it in every amp, in every gain stage. Its decent as a PI, But I feel the Sovtek LPS kicks its butt in every way. I do want to try the new cv4004 RI from Mullard, which was put out specifically for guitar amps. It is my understanding the mullard 12ax7 RI is much better for hi fi equipment.
Click to expand...
+1 on the Mullard RI in guitar amps. To me they take that compressed, hazy sound of the Tung Sol and makes it even muddier. The Mullards have plenty of gain, but I don't like what they do to the dynamics and clarity. They certainly sound nothing like real Mullards. I have no experience with them in hifi systems. The Sovtek LPS has a much better balance from top to bottom, and don't sound hyped in the mids like the Mullard RI. The LPS is an excellent sounding tube, but can be too microphonic for V1 in some amps.

JeffB said:
At any rate, purchase from a quality tube supplier like tube depot or the tube store to avoid crap.
Click to expand...
+1 because any brand of tube can be a dud, and it's nice to have a supplier back up what they sell.

I will also say that my new favorite tube is the 12AX7AC7 offered by Ruby. I think that it is also offered as the Preferred Series 7025, TAD 7025S, and PM ECC83T. I love them. No hype, great frequency balance, excellent dynamics, smooth transition into distortion. No hazy, muddled harmonics. Nearly as good as my favorite old stock tubes, IMO.
 
Re: Tung-Sol 12AX7 and JJ ECC83s

I use tung-sol 12ax7 in my Engl preamp and in the pre side of my Marshall 9200 poweramp. I've been using them since 03 and haven't had a qc issue.
 
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