Two very similar guitars, but one is way too bright

[GuitarStv]

I've got two guitars that sound very similarly acoustically - kinda mellow sounding. Both with compound radius maple necks with big frets, both with floating floyd bridges. They both have the same wiring - one volume, two tones, 250k pots. Both use a 22nF cap on the neck tone, and a 15nF cap on the mid tone. They both have a treble bleed (130k resistor in series with 1.2nF cap) on the volume. Wiring is traditional strat for both - neck tone, mid tone, and nothing on the bridge.

The biggest difference between the two is in the pickups, but they're pretty similar too:
- The good guitar has SSL-2 (6.5k), SSL-2 (6.5k), SSL-6 (13.3k) - sounds great for everything that I play
- The problem guitar has a D. Allen Echoes set - 5.8k, 5.8k, 12.5k - is way too bright with gain (either from the amp or pedals) in all positions, but sounds nice when totally clean. I can knock off some of the highs with the tone controls on the neck and middle, but it's like there's a hole in the lower mids.


I use and am happy with pretty much the same amp settings with a telecaster, 335, and the good strat. I don't mind if the problem guitar sounds different, but don't want to have to re-EQ everything when I pull it out.


So . . . what electronic changes should I do first to try to calm the problem guitar down?

 

[alex1fly]

I don't understand why turning the tone control down would reduce the lower mids. That doesn't make sense to me. But still, you hear what you hear. Can you bump up the bass side of the pickups and drop the treble side?

Maybe you need overwound singles or single coil sized hums.

Or put an EQ pedal on your board and engage only for that other guitar. That'd be extremely simple, plus the bonus of having an EQ pedal to use with any guitar. Helps me to write down my EQ pedal settings.

 

[GuitarStv]

I don't understand why turning the tone control down would reduce the lower mids. That doesn't make sense to me. But still, you hear what you hear. Can you bump up the bass side of the pickups and drop the treble side?

Maybe you need overwound singles or single coil sized hums.

Or put an EQ pedal on your board and engage only for that other guitar. That'd be extremely simple, plus the bonus of having an EQ pedal to use with any guitar. Helps me to write down my EQ pedal settings.

No, the tone control doesn't change the lower mids . . . the pickups are too bright. You can use the tone control to get rid of some of the highs, but there's still something weird going on in the mids. It's like there are way too many upper mids and too few lower mids or something.

I'd prefer not to have to buy an EQ pedal specifically with this guitar, as I don't need one with any of my other guitars and my pedalboard is full. Pickup change is my last resort. I figure worst case scenario I could just get some SSL-2s and SSL-6s again. But the pickups in there aren't too different than the ones in the guitar I like, and I'm cheap and was wondering if there's an electronic solution that I should try first. Maybe knock the volume pot down from 250k to a 200k one or something and hook up all the pickups to tone pots and increase the value of the tone caps to .047.

 

[Dudeman7]

Are you noticing the issue with all three pickups in the guitar? A buddy of mine had a very similar issue with his Jazzmaster. Turned out to be two dead poles in his bridge pickup.

I would recommend double checking the pickups for proper phase too. Out of phase pickups sound pretty thin.

Good luck getting this sorted out!

 

[Ascension]

No, the tone control doesn't change the lower mids . . . the pickups are too bright. You can use the tone control to get rid of some of the highs, but there's still something weird going on in the mids. It's like there are way too many upper mids and too few lower mids or something.

I would suspect that the pickups are the culprits if the guitars sound really similar unplugged. Specs may be similar on paper but in reality may have a far different tone due to the wind and mags.
Suggestion if you look at changing pickups. I have used the SSl-1 or 2's in a couple guitars with a SSL 5 or 6 in the bridge so know those tones. I ran a set of the Antiquity II Surfer retrospects in the Silverado Washburn I picked up a few months ago and they surprised me. I find them more versatile that the SSL 2 SSL 6 set up.

 

[GuitarStv]

Are you noticing the issue with all three pickups in the guitar? A buddy of mine had a very similar issue with his Jazzmaster. Turned out to be two dead poles in his bridge pickup.

I would recommend double checking the pickups for proper phase too. Out of phase pickups sound pretty thin.

Good luck getting this sorted out!

Unfortunately, all pickup positions are much brighter than the SDs in my other guitar. It's manageable in the neck position with the tone rolled off a bit, but way to bright everywhere else. It happens with the pickups on their own too, so I don't think it's phase related.

 

[AdrianSD]

Try the cap soldered between the hot wire and ground trick, play with different values, cheapest hack I can think off now.

 

[Chistopher]

Don't underestimate the power of changing strings. Maybe go up in a guage or switch to a softer material.

 

[zionstrat]

What are you trying to achieve with two different strats? If the other guitar is good at standard strat sounds there are a number of options you could consider with your bright guitar.

The first one is practically free..go up a gauge or two in strings and see what you get. I've worked with a few thin strats that came alive with heavier strings.. the heavier strings can absorb more physical energy which means you can strum harder which translates into more output and a broader dynamic range.

You keep the brightness, however you are now driving the amp harder and your quieter playing will have less harmonics so you're likely to end up with a tone that seems less bright.

So if you're playing nines try tens or 11s and don't let anybody tell you that you can't play "heavy strings"... These are considered lite gauge for acoustic guitar strings, you will learn to bend in time and you might get a magnificent SRV tone...

In the same direction, consider " Pure Nickel: Pure Nickel strings are less bright than nickel-plated steel with added warmth" stolen directly from the musician's friend page..

Polymer coated strings usually have an even more muted sound... we put them on a lot of stage performance guitars for players who don't have roadies to string them up every night and we compensate for the reduction in highs...but you want reduction in highs.

In a different direction, I like to modify strats creating a one-stop shop performance guitar. First of all you switch to noiseless strat sized pups so that you don't go insane the first time you play in a ridiculous RF environment.

Depending on the tone you're going for you could put in one of the humbucker emulating bridge pickups, keep your center pup as is, and go with a high output neck.

Pick the right bridge humbucker and you can definitely reduce the highs and the overwound neck will reduce highs and give you a great warm neck solo.

And by keeping the lower output standard strat center pickup, you might end up with good quack in two and four positions.

So there's a whole bunch of options that don't require any major surgery. Go slow, mix and match some of the above ideas and you could end up with a clear but not overly bright guitar.

And as stated previously tone caps are cheap cheap and often do the job.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

 

[zionstrat]

Chris, our ships passed in the night.. if I was capable of writing short replies, mine might have posted first

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[VinceT]

One other thing you might try in diagnosing the issue - switch scratch plates between the guitars (I.e. try the other pickups in the problem guitar). That’ll tell if it’s definitely the pups that are the issue.


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[AdrianSD]

One other thing you might try in diagnosing the issue - switch scratch plates between the guitars (I.e. try the other pickups in the problem guitar). That’ll tell if it’s definitely the pups that are the issue.


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Brilliant!

 

[GuitarStv]

Try the cap soldered between the hot wire and ground trick, play with different values, cheapest hack I can think off now.

This is a cool idea! What cap values do you start playing around with for this?

Don't underestimate the power of changing strings. Maybe go up in a guage or switch to a softer material.

What are you trying to achieve with two different strats? If the other guitar is good at standard strat sounds there are a number of options you could consider with your bright guitar.

The first one is practically free..go up a gauge or two in strings and see what you get. I've worked with a few thin strats that came alive with heavier strings.. the heavier strings can absorb more physical energy which means you can strum harder which translates into more output and a broader dynamic range.

You keep the brightness, however you are now driving the amp harder and your quieter playing will have less harmonics so you're likely to end up with a tone that seems less bright.

So if you're playing nines try tens or 11s and don't let anybody tell you that you can't play "heavy strings"... These are considered lite gauge for acoustic guitar strings, you will learn to bend in time and you might get a magnificent SRV tone...

In the same direction, consider " Pure Nickel: Pure Nickel strings are less bright than nickel-plated steel with added warmth" stolen directly from the musician's friend page..

Polymer coated strings usually have an even more muted sound... we put them on a lot of stage performance guitars for players who don't have roadies to string them up every night and we compensate for the reduction in highs...but you want reduction in highs.

I've currently got both guitars strung with Elixir nanoweb10-52s in standard tuning. I really like the way these gauges play on a 25.5 inch neck, but will try an .11 standard on the misbehaving guitar the next time I swap strings. It's just kinda a pain in the ass because of the need to rebalance the floyd after the string swap (and then do it again if I can't get along with the .11s.

Thanks for the string suggestion though!

In a different direction, I like to modify strats creating a one-stop shop performance guitar. First of all you switch to noiseless strat sized pups so that you don't go insane the first time you play in a ridiculous RF environment.

Depending on the tone you're going for you could put in one of the humbucker emulating bridge pickups, keep your center pup as is, and go with a high output neck.

Pick the right bridge humbucker and you can definitely reduce the highs and the overwound neck will reduce highs and give you a great warm neck solo.

And by keeping the lower output standard strat center pickup, you might end up with good quack in two and four positions.

So there's a whole bunch of options that don't require any major surgery. Go slow, mix and match some of the above ideas and you could end up with a clear but not overly bright guitar.

And as stated previously tone caps are cheap cheap and often do the job.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

I am trying to have two guitars that are set up the same and maybe sound a little different so I can use one as a backup when I'm playing out - and I'm (usually) quite happy with just some low output single coils and a beefier bridge. No need for any fancy/weird wiring or for them to do it all - I've got a 335 and a tele(ish) guitar that both cover other tones nicely. If pickup swaps are going to happen, I'm probably leaning towards STK-S4 and STK-S6s - which should be pretty close to the other pickups I've got.

One other thing you might try in diagnosing the issue - switch scratch plates between the guitars (I.e. try the other pickups in the problem guitar). That’ll tell if it’s definitely the pups that are the issue.

I actually tried that last night. It's definitely either the pickups or the wiring on the scratch plate. (I even double checked the value of the volume pot - it's bright enough that I was wondering if a 500k pot made it in there or something, no such luck unfortunately.)

 

[Ascension]

I am trying to have two guitars that are set up the same and maybe sound a little different so I can use one as a backup when I'm playing out - and I'm (usually) quite happy with just some low output single coils and a beefier bridge. No need for any fancy/weird wiring or for them to do it all - I've got a 335 and a tele(ish) guitar that both cover other tones nicely.
.)

Absolutely understand this concept and set up several of my guitars to work together myself.
This is why I suggested looking at the Antiquities Surfer 2 set with the hotter Custom bridge if you have to swap pickups. I for years have run the SSL 1 /5 or SSL 2/ 6 sets in strats as a go to set up. Tried the Surfer 2! retrospects in my Washburn USA Silverado and have been absolutely blown away by them. Great vintage strat tone with a fatter and bigger sounding bridge and after running this set will not go back the the SSL set up. These are much more balanced and sweet than the SSL 1/5 sets ever were. Would also be close enough to work with your SSL-2/'6 set though.
I also am running a 300 ohm volume pot and the tones on neck and bridge only. Super versatile great sounding Strat set up and the best tones with this particular guitar I have ever gotten out of any Strat. Actually took the Silverado with the Surfer 2 set to a local shop that handles Fender CS, PRS Silver Stars, Suhr ect while I was looking at an amp. It blew the guys minds that my Silerado was the best sounding Strat in the shop that day.

Here is a solid demo of this set and while they are not cheap for me were worth every penny!

 

[GuitarStv]

Absolutely understand this concept and set up several of my guitars to work together myself.
This is why I suggested looking at the Antiquities Surfer 2 set with the hotter Custom bridge if you have to swap pickups. I for years have run the SSL 1 /5 or SSL 2/ 6 sets in strats as a go to set up. Tried the Surfer 2! retrospects in my Washburn USA Silverado and have been absolutely blown away by them. Great vintage strat tone with a fatter and bigger sounding bridge and after running this set will not go back the the SSL set up. These are much more balanced and sweet than the SSL 1/5 sets ever were. Would also be close enough to work with your SSL-2/'6 set though.
I also am running a 300 ohm volume pot and the tones on neck and bridge only. Super versatile great sounding Strat set up and the best tones with this particular guitar I have ever gotten out of any Strat.
Here is a solid demo of this set and while they are not cheap for me were worth every penny!

The surfers sound great . . . I'm not a fan of staggered strat pickups though. Does SD make a flat stagger with them?

 

[Benjy_26]

Swap loaded pickguards around and see if the electronics package is the problem.

 

[Mincer]

The surfers sound great . . . I'm not a fan of staggered strat pickups though. Does SD make a flat stagger with them?

You can order them flat through the Shop Floor Custom program.

 

[Ascension]

You can order them flat through the Shop Floor Custom program.

Yep!
I anticipated possibly having a issue with string balance with the Silverado and the staggered Surfers so looked into this but surprisingly didn't. The board radius on my Washburn is a 16 so it's really flat but they sound great with no issue with the outputs being noticeably out of balance.

 

[Ascension]

Clip through my PRS Archon with no effects over a track with the Silverado and the Surfers.They surprised the heck out of me just how good they sounded in this guitar!

 

[hamerfan]

This is a cool idea! What cap values do you start playing around ?

120 pF is in the range of the cable capacity and is barely audible. I had good results with 500pF to 1000pF means .0005 to .001 uF. When using a 4700 pF, your strat will sound like a Les Paul.