Vitamin Q 0.022

WhoGivesAPluck

WhoGivesAPluck

New member
So a 0.022s a 0.022s a 0.022 right? I'm not so sure anymore, sure i think it's fair to say that the change in materials used will effect the tone! I have a polyester film cap sprague 0.22 a ceramic disk cap (RadioShack) 0.022 and a Russian NOS PIO 0.022 and a Vitamin Q nos pio and I can almost promise you everyone here will pick the Vitamin Q
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

I'm the opposite. I would throw out the ceramic disc. Any of the others, as long as the value was in tolerance would be just fine.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

In reality, a capacitor's actual value and tolerance makes a difference (a generally small one though) much more than capacitor type (which I consider to be negligible). If you want to change something about the tone control, change the parts based on their values, tapers, and tolerances. f[SUB]c[/SUB]=1/(2πRC) doesn't change because you used a ceramic disk capacitor instead of an orange drop capacitor. A resistor measuring 17 Kilohms and a capacitor measuring .001 microfarads is always going to have a frequency cutoff of 9360Hz, regardless if the capacitor is paper-in-oil, sprague, orange drop, etc. I very much doubt anyone can truly hear a difference between capacitor types in a double-blind test scenario.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

The problem I found with the cheap ceramics is that they don't discharge consistently, so effectively the value is constantly changing, which in turn does something really muddy to the resulting sound. In my testing, it somehow managed to blur detail in the notes of chords being played.

So basically I throw them out, not because they are ceramic, but because they are practically defective.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

beaubrummels said:
The problem I found with the cheap ceramics is that they don't discharge consistently, so effectively the value is constantly changing, which in turn does something really muddy to the resulting sound. In my testing, it somehow managed to blur detail in the notes of chords being played.

So basically I throw them out, not because they are ceramic, but because they are practically defective.
Click to expand...

I've never had that problem. But I don't buy capacitors from Radioshack (whose parts just suck no matter what - I think their parts are unreliable).
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Edgecrusher said:
The signal that goes through the cap is sent to ground and is not part of your audio, So how can the materials effect tone?
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In theory, the tonal goodness would owe to what the capacitor doesn't send to ground, but I think the fact of knowing you're putting a big, more expensive, vintage correct and/or more attractive electrical component in your guitar does far more to inform perception than the actual sound differences.

If there really is a difference, I just wish the people who claim there is a difference could do better than "I definitely hear a a difference!" and explain a) what the difference is, and b) the technical nature of the difference, because then we could at least agree that there is a difference at all, and move on to the more mundane issue of whether that difference is worth $5.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

DreX said:
In theory, the tonal goodness would owe to what the capacitor doesn't send to ground
Click to expand...

Yeah you can call it a theory but thats not how it works.

But I do agree that people "want" to hear a difference after they spend 15 bucks for a cap.

You can find many times people describe the difference but its usually in extremely vague terms like "more naturally organic highs"
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

This discussion occurs regularly and is almost always polarising. I have a slightly different take on things ....

If you're upgrading a cheap, unspectacular guitar on the cheap, it's probably not worth investing $10-20 for a tone cap that may not make any audible difference to your ears. However, once someone is looking at upgrading a good guitar with expensive pickups, it's usually logical to make sure that the pots and wiring are also up to a good standard, so one might then spend more on new pots, wiring harness, switches etc. After all, if you invest in $200-300 pickups, it would be silly to compromise them by using poor quality pots, switches and wiring, surely ?

At that point, it's not a big deal to invest in a very good tone cap, so that regardless of what the conventional wisdom may be, and regardless of what you think you hear, you know you've installed the best cap along with the best pots, switches, wiring and pickups.

All my guitars have Sprague Vitamin Q caps. Can i hear the difference ? I don't know, the caps were installed at times when the guitars got new pickups and improved electronics. But i sleep fine at night knowing my guitars have the best parts in them, no compromises have been made, they sound brilliant and there is no need for further consideration; now i can simply play them.

And considering each guitar probably had $300+ spent on upgrades, $10 for a tone cap is a very small percentage of the total, so in my mind, the bad decision would have been to NOT upgrade the cap.

No doubt most people will not agree with my approach and would prefer to continue debating the issue. Personally i think it's worth $10 to just move beyond that and get back to playing.

For those who'd prefer to continue debating, just get some Wima red-box caps. Cheap and virtually boutique.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

crusty philtrum said:
And considering each guitar probably had $300+ spent on upgrades, $10 for a tone cap is a very small percentage of the total, so in my mind, the bad decision would have been to NOT upgrade the cap.
Click to expand...

That sounds a lot like sunk-cost fallacy; "because I've already spent a lot, I might as well spend a little more", but a waste of money is still a waste of money.

It's probably more accurate to say that if you have enough disposable income to blow on an expensive guitar, then you can probably afford to gamble another $50 on upgrades that might or might not make any difference.

Another not-entirely-bad reason to only upgrade an expensive guitar is because if the guitar is otherwise vintage correct, with nitro finish, steel hardware, correct lumber, etc. , then there's something to be said for completeness and authenticity.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

DreX said:
That sounds a lot like sunk-cost fallacy; "because I've already spent a lot, I might as well spend a little more", but a waste of money is still a waste of money.
Click to expand...

It's just my opinion and attitude (which i indicated at the start of my previous post), an opinion which is no less valid than yours. What you consider to be a waste of money may not be considered that way by others. As i've said, in my own cases, it would have been a potential waste of money NOT to have invested a few percent more when making costly upgrades. I prefer to go into a guitar once, upgrade once to the highest level, and then get back to what it's all about .... playing. I'm not a guitar scientist, and don't want to be.

As for " It's probably more accurate to say ..." .... ummm .... i was expressing my own views, so i'm not sure how youy can tell me, or anyone else, what is a more accurate version of their/my own thoughts.

Unless of course you feel you know better than everybody else.

You might like to tell us about your experiences auditioning tone caps of various materials instead of the usual nit-picking, penny-scrimping stance you usually assume. i.e. an opinion of your own, rather than telling me that my opinion "could be more accurate".

Or you could post some clips of your playing that will convince us that we would be wise to abandon our own experiences, opinions and ways of doing things because your ways are simply better than anybody elses and it shows in your amazing playing and tone.

Or quite simply post anything that gives people some reason to give any credit to what you have to say, rather than telling people that their own opinions/thoughts/ways/experiences are misguided and probably wrong.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Spending more on a cap for better tolerance is a fine idea +/- %1 , %5 and %10 are a pretty large difference. Yet again I will say what they are made of , notsomuch. Double blind test , no one in this universe can tell which is which. Things that are undetectable to the human ear get a lot of talk in online forums.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

crusty philtrum said:
As i've said, in my own cases, it would have been a potential waste of money NOT to have invested a few percent more when making costly upgrades. I prefer to go into a guitar once, upgrade once to the highest level, and then get back to what it's all about .... playing. I'm not a guitar scientist, and don't want to be.
Click to expand...

I did not say your opinion is invalid, but this is what it comes down to: whether or not the capacitor dielectric, makes a difference in tone or not, is not a matter of opinion. Some people believe the dielectric type makes a difference the human ear can detect, some believe it doesn't, but ultimately one side must right and the other must be wrong, we just don't know who is right and who is wrong at thus juncture, and it is a financial gamble to put forth any extra money when there is no certainty of benefit.

That being what it is, from what I've read, it's the view of electricians that the difference in capacitor dielectric mostly matters in high-voltage scenarios, and was more of a concern back when vacuum tubes were much more common.
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

crusty philtrum said:
This discussion occurs regularly and is almost always polarising. I have a slightly different take on things ....

If you're upgrading a cheap, unspectacular guitar on the cheap, it's probably not worth investing $10-20 for a tone cap that may not make any audible difference to your ears. However, once someone is looking at upgrading a good guitar with expensive pickups, it's usually logical to make sure that the pots and wiring are also up to a good standard, so one might then spend more on new pots, wiring harness, switches etc. After all, if you invest in $200-300 pickups, it would be silly to compromise them by using poor quality pots, switches and wiring, surely ?

At that point, it's not a big deal to invest in a very good tone cap, so that regardless of what the conventional wisdom may be, and regardless of what you think you hear, you know you've installed the best cap along with the best pots, switches, wiring and pickups.

All my guitars have Sprague Vitamin Q caps. Can i hear the difference ? I don't know, the caps were installed at times when the guitars got new pickups and improved electronics. But i sleep fine at night knowing my guitars have the best parts in them, no compromises have been made, they sound brilliant and there is no need for further consideration; now i can simply play them.

And considering each guitar probably had $300+ spent on upgrades, $10 for a tone cap is a very small percentage of the total, so in my mind, the bad decision would have been to NOT upgrade the cap.

No doubt most people will not agree with my approach and would prefer to continue debating the issue. Personally i think it's worth $10 to just move beyond that and get back to playing.

For those who'd prefer to continue debating, just get some Wima red-box caps. Cheap and virtually boutique.
Click to expand...

Crusty that is no doubt a great practice. If you are going to do something you may as well do it right.

“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” ― Benjamin Franklin
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

Oinkus said:
Spending more on a cap for better tolerance is a fine idea +/- %1 , %5 and %10 are a pretty large difference.
Click to expand...

I think this is one of the most important points when talking about cap selection. Capacitors have notoriously loose tolerances. A .022uf could easily be anywhere from .0176 to .0264. That could possibly cause an audible difference.

Btw, for my ears, I've done the 5-caps-on-a-5-way-switch test. From a $22 Hovland to a cheap ceramic. All custom matched in a temp/humidity controlled calibration lab. I could hear no difference. But I usually use OD's just 'cause they look cool. :)
 
Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

beaubrummels said:
I'm the opposite. I would throw out the ceramic disc. Any of the others, as long as the value was in tolerance would be just fine.
Click to expand...

Funny because I went back and forth with several types in my MIJ strat : Orange drop 715, 716, 225, Mallory 150, silver mica, Russian PIO, and I think large NOS ceramic disc sounds best lol.
I put them in a les paul copy as well, I also prefer the sound over stock caps with same value.
Could be the tolerance, but I tested smaller and larger value caps as well and still prefer the ceramic.
 
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022

NOS is different. I had a 1966 ceramic disc cap from a Strat that worked just fine. It's the cheap new ones that suck.
 
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