Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

[Dave Locher]

So I bought a Dunlop Crybaby on an impulse. Always wanted to try a wah, never got around to it. Scooped up a good deal on eBay for one that appears to be old but never used.
Running it into my '78 Randall rg100es, playing a guitar with a Bill & Becky L500XL humbucker.
I am surprised by how much the volume drops when it is engaged. I realize you're cutting out a lot of frequencies but I thought since it's a powered device, not passive, that it would also boost the narrow freqencies that are passing through.

I tried putting an OD before and after, and putting it after the wah brings back some of the volume but does weird things to the sound. Speaking of the sound, there is no position on the treadle that I really like.

Is wah just not for me? Not for this amp? Or am I missing something?

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Which model ?

 

[VinceT]

Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Dave - can you get a sound clip?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Model CG95.

I can try doing a sound clip tonight if I have time. (Wife's out of town, so I'm dealing with two young kids on my own.)
It sounds like a wah. But it's just more "narrow" or "focused" sounding than I expected and the volume seems lower because of that. The lower end sounds really muffled and the higher end sounds really shrill to me. I only messed with it for an hour but I was surprised I could not find any spot in the middle to park it for a cocked wah sound. If there is a sweet spot in there it is TINY!

Keep in mind, though, that this is the first time I have played through a wah since 1988 or so, and that one time was 10 minutes with a bass wah into a very different amp. I think wahs might just be one of those things that sound great to me when other people use them but not when I use them. Sorta like Strats. Or JBs.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

If you take off the back plate you can loosen the sprocket to move one or two notches more to the bass side (heel down), which will take off some high-end. The pot has a little extra travel available, but not a lot, so I wouldn't do more than one or two notches. If you go too many notches it will exceed what the pot can do.

Dunlop keeps making improvements to their wah line, especially to the GCB-95, so it's improved over the years (recent models have a red fasel inductor). A lot of wahs in the 1980's and 1990's didn't sound all that good. It's become a refined art in the 2000's, and there's a lot a excellent makes and models these days. Some correct for the typical volume drop when the pedal is turned on, and many are true bypass.

If you're only going to have one wah, my recommendation is to get an adjustable model like a Dunlop 535Q or MC404 (used will save you some money) and you'll be able to dial it in. Without being able to make adjustments, you either like it or you don't (or you can swap out some of the electronics on the board, but that may be more than you want to do at this point).

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Or even better, a Teese.

Interesting though, my 90's standard crybaby sounds really good. The bypass is horrible, but the tone is better than my Vox.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Model CG95.

May I suggest that it's GCB95, there's no cg95.
This page goes into detail about them and the changes over the years, they vary quite a lot.
- https://www.electrosmash.com/crybaby-gcb-95 -
The change of the inductors they use/used could make a big difference as to how they sound.
I'm wondering whether yours has been modified or is stock standard. There are plenty of mods that can be made.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

+1 on this maybe not being the right wah for you. I've played a bunch of GCB-95s over the years, and I just don't care for them. I also owned a 535Q for a while and it was better, but still not for me. These days I'm rocking a Wilson Signature Wah which is modeled after the Vox Clyde McCoy. In terms of tone the high end is a little sweeter and it possibly has just a little more bass and low mid. It also has a fuzz-friendly buffer and adjustable output volume. I currently have it set roughly to unity, but there's more volume on tap if I want it.

In addition to the 535Q and MC404 recommendations, you may also want to look into a Jerry Cantrell signature. It's fatter sounding than a stock Crybaby and I believe it has adjustable volume as well.

 

[LLL]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

I am surprised by how much the volume drops when it is engaged.

I tried putting an OD before and after, and putting it after the wah brings back some of the volume but does weird things to the sound. Speaking of the sound, there is no position on the treadle that I really like.

Is wah just not for me? Not for this amp? Or am I missing something?

Low Input Impedance

The issue is low input impedance; typical of many wahs and fuzzes.

You might need a buffer before the wah to offset the tone suck/volume loss.

 

[LLL]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

I've posted this before, but everybody needs to read this thoroughly:

why and when to use a guitar buffer pedal

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Also, the red Fasel inductor thing is no joke.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Since you don't like the sound of your wah to begin with, there are wah's that are designed to compensate for the volume drop, and some have boosts. So if you get another pedal, you don't need to also get a buffer if you pick one of them. 535Q's have a boost switch and MC404's have an adjustable internal boost control. Problem solved.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Gracias to all. Usually I research things to death before I make a purchase but this one really was a total impulse buy.
Sounds like I need to try one of the other models mentioned!

 

[blueman335]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Gracias to all. Usually I research things to death before I make a purchase but this one really was a total impulse buy.
Sounds like I need to try one of the other models mentioned!

You do. There are so many wah's available today, with different specs and features, in a wide price range. If you want a wah (or two, or three...) this is a great time to be shopping.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Low Input Impedance

The issue is low input impedance; typical of many wahs and fuzzes.

You might need a buffer before the wah to offset the tone suck/volume loss.

The GCb 95 has a buffer.

- https://www.electrosmash.com/crybaby-gcb-95 -

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Also, the red Fasel inductor thing is no joke.

Get your Red and Yellow Fasels here. - https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/inductor-dunlop-fasel-toroidal-model-red -

 

[blueman335]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

Get your Red and Yellow Fasels here. - https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/inductor-dunlop-fasel-toroidal-model-red -

Depending on the wah, your other gear, and what sound you want, you may prefer a yellow fasel. There are other kinds of inductors available too. Once you get interested in wahs, you just may get addicted. Happened to me, and I never thought it would.

 

[LLL]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

The GCb 95 has a buffer.

- https://www.electrosmash.com/crybaby-gcb-95 -

I see. And input impedance is ~800 KOhm. Output is nice and low at 10 KOhm.

Must not be a very good buffer if (assuming) he's going straight guitar-wah-amp and losing output/tone.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

I see. And input impedance is ~800 KOhm. Output is nice and low at 10 KOhm.

Must not be a very good buffer if (assuming) he's going straight guitar-wah-amp and losing output/tone.

Imo the buffer Dunlop uses is pretty crappy.
I went with the wired bypass one....Crybaby Classic with the red (?) fasel inductor. Best sounding wah I've ever played.

I will say that the buffer seems to work better for some amps than others. I originally had the 95Q switchless. It wreaked havoc on my tone with the Quickrod but sounds fine with he Blackstar, so take my above comment for what it's worth.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Wah into dirty amp = volume drop?

I see. And input impedance is ~800 KOhm. Output is nice and low at 10 KOhm.

Must not be a very good buffer if (assuming) he's going straight guitar-wah-amp and losing output/tone.

He who ? If you read the linked article it states this.

The circuit is undoubtedly inspired on the VOX V847. One of the mayor concerns of the original VOX design was the tone sucking due to the low input impedance of the Input Stage which was 69.5KΩ. Dunlop fixed this problem adding a buffer which raises the input impedance to 1MΩ preserving the guitar original tone. Besides the Input Buffer there are only two changes in the circuit:

and

Dunlop Cry Baby GCB-95 Input Impedance:
For simplification we can ignore R[SUB]in3[/SUB], the input impedance is Rin1 in parallel with Rin2 and the input impedance of the emitter follower. It can be calculated following the formula:

[FONT=MathJax_Math]Z[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]i[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]n[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]=[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]R[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]2[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]R[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]i[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]n[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]2[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]Z[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]i[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]n[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]B[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]J[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]T[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]=[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]2[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]M[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]2[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]1[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]M[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]8[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]/[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]([/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]5000[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]⋅[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]10[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]K[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main])[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]=[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]1[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math]M[/FONT]​

1MΩ can be considered a good input impedance to avoid signal degradation. The effect of the resistor R[SUB]in3[/SUB] reduces this value to 750KΩ which is still a good input resistance value.

note: The hybrid pi model and mathematics behind the Voltage Gain and Input Impedance calculation are similar as in Tube Screamer input buffer, check it for further details.

Dunlop Cry Baby GCB-95 Output impedance. Once again the output impedance can be estimated using the hybrid pi model, but in this case the formula is complex and does not give any intuitive idea. Alternatively, the value can be calculated using pspice accurate simulation giving a value of 5KΩ. The real value is between 630Ω and 8.6KΩ (The position of the VR1 potentiometer effects the value of the output impedance) which can be considered as good output impedance. For more details check the V847 output impedance calculation which is the same circuit as the GCB95.