Water-based Dye Question

jimijames

New member
How long should I let the dye dry before I apply grain filler? Also, I'm getting water based grain filler, so I take it that it goes dye -> filler -> Sand and Sealer -> Clear coat?

Also, on the bottle it says to raise the grain first, how do I do this? Is it necessary to raise the grain first for a dye finish?

This is my first dye finish, I usually use the Reranch spray cans so if you have any more advice on how to do this properly its much appreciated.

edit: One more thing - I'm using water based filler and I'm doing masked binding - can I use clear grain filler? Does it exist?
 
Last edited:
Re: Water-based Dye Question

How long should I let the dye dry before I apply grain filler? Also, I'm getting water based grain filler, so I take it that it goes dye -> filler -> Sand and Sealer -> Clear coat?

Nope. If you're using a water based dye and a water based finish you need a barrier coat between them or else the finish will leech the dye from the wood and you'll end up with a muddied finish. It should go like this: dye -> barrier coat ( 1 lb. cut shellac is ideal) -> grain filler -> clear coat. You don't really need a sanding sealer. Sanding sealer is just a finish with glycerin (soap) added to help lubricate the finish when sanding. Skip it and just use whatever finish you're gonna use for a top coat.

Also, on the bottle it says to raise the grain first, how do I do this? Is it necessary to raise the grain first for a dye finish?

Raising the grain is a simple but necessary step when working with water-based finishing products. If you don't raise the grain first, the finish will raise it and you'll have a very rough surface. To raise the grain, take a moist sponge (a little wetter than damp, but not dripping wet) and wipe the entire body of the guitar. Let it sit for 1/2 hour or so for the water to dry, then sand off the raised grain. I usually do this twice, sometimes three times.

This is my first dye finish, I usually use the Reranch spray cans so if you have any more advice on how to do this properly its much appreciated.

edit: One more thing - I'm using water based filler and I'm doing masked binding - can I use clear grain filler? Does it exist?

First off, not all woods need to be filled. Maple and alder don't, mahogany and ash do, unless you like the look of the open pores (I do.) Whenever I choose to fill the pores on a guitar, I usually just use epoxy cut with naptha, spread with a 1 1/2" plastic trowel working with the grain then across it. 2 or 3 applications and it's done.

Working with water-based aniline dyes is pretty easy. First, if you're making your own from a powdered dye, get a quart of distilled water and bring it to a boil (I usually just nuke it for 2 minutes -- not boiling but plenty hot enough.) Add your dye powder to the water in a ratio recommended by the dye manufacturer. Normally, it's 1 tsp to 1 qt of water, but that's pretty wasteful since you won't use anywhere near a quart on a guitar body. I'd go for 1 tsp to 1/2 pint. Shake the dye solution vigorously for 20 - 30 seconds and let it cool to room temperature (I throw it in the fridge for a few minutes to speed the process up.)

To apply the dye, soak a clean, lint free cotton rag in the dye solution and wipe the body with the dye. Wet the body well, but don't drench it. Let the dye sit for a couple minutes and wipe off any excess. Work quickly when applying the dye and overlap your strokes by a couple inches to eliminate lap marks. If you wan't the color darker, reapply the dye. Let the guitar dry for an hour or so and apply your barrier coat then your filler. Keep in mind that after the dye dries it's gonna look like crap -- the color will come alive after you apply your finish. Oh, and wear gloves (nitrile) when mixing and applying the dye or you'll have fingers to match your guitar. :eek:
 
Re: Water-based Dye Question

+1 on the shelac. Ive used shelac to good effect to avoid smirring dyes under sunburst effects. He's doing this on ash. He might still need a sand-n-sealer to get a smooth base unless he does several grain filling operations.
 
Re: Water-based Dye Question

I thought we are supposed to do filler first, then dye?

Why does this remind me of the dyes in LOTRO? They are so easy to use...
 
Re: Water-based Dye Question

I thought we are supposed to do filler first, then dye?

Why does this remind me of the dyes in LOTRO? They are so easy to use...

If you fill the grain then the dye wont sink into the grain. If you are working with figured wood and want that 3D look then you need to apply the dye first. I guess you could use the filler 1st and then the dye for a different look...but ive never done it. The traditional way is to apply dye then filler.
 
Re: Water-based Dye Question

But if I use a black filler it probably doesn't matter, right?
 
Re: Water-based Dye Question

But if I use a black filler it probably doesn't matter, right?

I still dont think you would get as much of a 3D effect but im not 100% because i am by no ways an expert in dye finishes.

EDIT: thinking more about it, if you were using dark tinted filler then i would apply that first if the dye color is going to be on the lighter side. That way you fill the deep spots with the dark filler and then the lighter color goes on the top and you should still get a nice 3D type finish.

Again, this is speculation, ive never tried it. Ive always worked with clear filler and used it solely for the purpose of making sure the clear coats dont sink in. I want the dye to sink into the grain.
 
Last edited:
Re: Water-based Dye Question

I could try it in the pickup cavities first but then I'm lazy. I'll probably flip a coin.
 
Re: Water-based Dye Question

The filler is water based.

I think I go with dye first. Because I can always go back dye on top of the filler if I figure it is the right thing to do. Can't go backwards.
 
Back
Top