What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

[eschoendorff]

With all the R&D that SD puts into their pickups, it has me wondering just what Bareknuckle could have that SD hasn't already thought of...

Likely showing my naive side here.... but, really, is there that much difference?

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

Boutique manufacturers like BKP and many others usually make hand-guided, scatterwound pickups, which cost a lot more money than regular production pickups. Consequently, such pickups can only be compared to Duncan models from the Antiquity range and custom shop orders. Bareknuckles themselves are only one of many similar pickup makers. It's not about who or what is better, it's about choices for the consumer.

You could ask ... "What do Gibson guitars have that Fenders don't ?" or vice versa. They're all guitars, some suit certain people, others suit other people. Pickups can be a difficult area, as hearing them and testing them and forming opinions is not always easy, particularly as one usually has to buy them and install them in one's own instrument before being able to hear whether they achieve the desired sound. In that way, the myriad of makes and models available can seem daunting, but it is certainly good to have options and variety available.

As always with music, best thing is to use your ears, learn to listen well and see where the journey takes you. Don't get caught up in internet bragging rights or hype over particular brands, seek what you think is going to work for you and don't worry too much about what it is or where it came from. SD is an awesome manufacturer with a very large range of products, all of which elicit very good responses from users. BKP are simply one of many other companies who perhaps specialise within a narrower field in the bigger picture.

 

[uOpt]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

With all the R&D that SD puts into their pickups, it has me wondering just what Bareknuckle could have that SD hasn't already thought of...

Likely showing my naive side here.... but, really, is there that much difference?

Which SDs did you compare them to?

The SD Custom Shop is an entirely different thing from the regular production pickups, and for neck humbuckers a huge advantage,IMHO.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

They speak with a funny english accent? :bling:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist :naughty:

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

They speak with a funny english accent? :bling:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist :naughty:

Tim PLAYS with english accent!!!
Sorry, I just couldn't resist also.

Guys, your humorous comments could be closer to the truth than you realise. BKP has a different customer base and mindset to the major US manufacturers. Some of the guitar tones that they have sought to emulate are, indeed, very English. (Or, perhaps, British.)

IMO, BKP tailors its pickup voicings to the taste of British customers. It just works out conveniently that some of Britain's favourite guitar tones are also America's favorites. (sic.)

I form the impression that the R&D approach at BKP is to build some prototypes, solder 'em in and see what (if anything) they sound similar to. From there, the prototypes can be tweeked until they nail any given target tone.

This makes good business sense because a large number of potential pickup buyers describe their desired sounds in terms of well-known recordings.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

Bareknuckles mades Gibson paf clones - like Seymour does with the Duncan Antiquity and Tom Holmes does with his pickups. Is that right? I've read interviews with them in Tonequest.

I any case, every single paf that Gibson wound in the 1950's has it's own wind, it's own specs and its own tone. All you can do if you're building a paf replica pickup is pick your favorite out of the thousands that were made and duplicate that one.

So there's a lot of room for personal expression and personal preference when building and winding paf replica pickups. That's one reason all the boutique paf replicas sound different from each other - because every ORIGINAL 1957 - 60 Gibson paf sounded different from every other one.

Read this: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/pickups/29143-paf-shootout-tonequest-report.html

Lew

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

As stated above, you can only compare BK's against SD's customs. BK is accuratelly following PAF design and material patterns (plates, covers, magnets, plain enamel wire, scatterwounding, poles, bases for coils, etc, etc). I sincerly don't know how SD is doing it at custom levels.

I don't know what's hard to understand about this.....many pickup makers have been making very close reproductions of older designs for years, if one can do it, many can do it. What's so difficult to understand about SD doing it in the custom shop?

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

*A sexy box, containing a pick, a set of strings (GHS, if memory don't fail) and all the candy.
* Compared with SD regular production line, BK's have a 3D sound, very articulated, defined in every string. Difficult to explain it, you have to hear it.
[/LIST]I never checked SD custom pickups so, I cannot fairly compare them.
I can only say that, I was searching for a long while for some humbucker giving me the tone I had in my very first guitar (a MIJ from the 80's). That was the humbucker sound that is now delivering me the BK's, something that was approached with SD's 59' but never fully achieved before.

BKPs come with Rotosound strings, also made in the UK.

This post opened with a repeat of something i said, namely that BK's can't be compared with regular production SDs, but then you go on to compare them. They can't be compared with ANY regular production pickup....scatterwound pickups of any denomination are their own thing and can't fairly be compared to ANY production pickups, and the prices illustrate the difference between the two worlds. BKP is simply one of many small manufacturers who only make scatterwound pickups. SD, being a much larger operation, makes both regular production models and higher-priced custom shop models that are largely scatterwound to the best of my knowledge. Once again, the differences are reflected in the prices.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

Bareknuckles mades Gibson paf clones - like Seymour does with the Duncan Antiquity and Tom Holmes does with his pickups. Is that right? I've read interviews with them in Tonequest.

Lew

I don't think BKP claim for any of their humbuckers to be PAF clones or reproductions, they use established sounds as a base for their models, and of course that will imply that some models will be very similar to an old PAF. But they make many flavours, from vintage to high-gain beasts. It's the same in the Strat range, the product names give an indication of the style of sound one might expect....'Apaches', 'Sultans', 'Slowhand' etc. surely give one a rough idea of what sonic territory those models might inhabit. (I guess you need to be a little savvy to know all the names and what they refer to....i get lost with it on the high-gain models as i don't know the reference points).

SO...apart from an interesting naming convention, the range of models is quite similar to what any other manufacturer might do.....create a range of pickups varying from the more traditional sounding ones through increasing hotter ones all the way up to high-gain. And of course similarly gained pickups with different tonal signatures.

There is no magic about BKP unless you consider that similar magic is being woven by other manufacturers too, including of course the SD Custom shop models. Lots of companies make automobiles of many qualities and many price-points. Pickup manufacturers are no different.

I think the original poster has focused on BKP becauise there is currently a thread about them on the front page here in the pickup lounge. It could just as easily have been a thread about Wolfetone, WCR, Holmes, Chubtone, Slider or a gazillion other boutique builders. No doubt all excellent products, and we are lucky to have such fabulous choices if our ears lead us to such a point where it is an issue. Most manufacturers now are capable of building very high quality stuff, and we have the choices. I doubt there is very much difference between the way the high-end builders go about what they do, the basic knowledge, technology and materials are available (relatively) easily now to almost everyone, and many have refined their skills to a very high level.

(Sorry, Lew, only the first few lines were a kind of response to your point, the rest is meant as general reading for all, and is mostly my opinions)

 

[jake_xms3_punk]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

i've been looking into bare knuckle pickups too and i found these videos on you tube comparing the mule with the gibson 57 classic.

this is the 57 classic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Qyl4bEBVE

this is the mule
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nadbs-0AfQ0

they do sound pretty similar but you can hear differences

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

I think the "trick" is to copy pickups which sounds are already well known and in a bunch of records ... that ... you felt automatically in love with, if that sound is what you are after.

The funny thing is, these beloved old recorded sounds are precisely what a lot of customers do want. (Just read through this forum.) It is financially advantageous to offer such products.

Ker-ching! :deal:

 

[GoDrex]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

With all the R&D that SD puts into their pickups, it has me wondering just what Bareknuckle could have that SD hasn't already thought of...

Likely showing my naive side here.... but, really, is there that much difference?

I always wonder the same thing

 

[Diocletian]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

Has a very responsive pre and post sale attention. SD answered none of my mails up to now.

Really? They've always answered me pretty quickly, and the one time they didn't they apologised.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

I don't think BKP claim for any of their humbuckers to be PAF clones or reproductions, they use established sounds as a base for their models, and of course that will imply that some models will be very similar to an old PAF. But they make many flavours, from vintage to high-gain beasts.

I've only read articles about them and interviews in conjuction with paf shoot-outs or the like. That's why I thought that was their specialty. They get great reviews and mags like Tonequest seem to think very highly of Bareknuckle's offerings. Lew

 

[jafo]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

How are BKP defining "hand-wound," anyway? 'Cause if the hand part is simply guiding the wire onto the bobbin, isn't that pretty much "scatter-wound"? I guess it's possible that they really do hold a pup in one hand and wrap wire around it with the other but that seems hideously error-prone, at least. Outside of legendary meth-heads bearing Dutch surnames, does anybody actually do that?

 

[jafo]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

The reason I ask the above is that PAFs were supposed to have been machine-wound, which kinda calls the importance of hand-winding into question.

 

[jimijames]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

I don't know what's hard to understand about this.....many pickup makers have been making very close reproductions of older designs for years, if one can do it, many can do it. What's so difficult to understand about SD doing it in the custom shop?

I think he was saying he doesn't know what methods SD uses rather than the possiblity of it... SD goes to some pretty serious lengths to produce vintage accurate pickups (Antiquities come to mind) so I don't think they'd have any trouble matching BKP in terms of materials used. So I assume he was refering to his lack of knowledge in regards to the inner workings of the SD custom shop.

edit: Sorry, I didn't read all the posts before I sent that up the grapevine. My bad.

 

[philthis]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

Boutique manufacturers like BKP and many others usually make hand-guided, scatterwound pickups, which cost a lot more money than regular production pickups. Consequently, such pickups can only be compared to Duncan models from the Antiquity range and custom shop orders. Bareknuckles themselves are only one of many similar pickup makers. It's not about who or what is better, it's about choices for the consumer.

You could ask ... "What do Gibson guitars have that Fenders don't ?" or vice versa. They're all guitars, some suit certain people, others suit other people. Pickups can be a difficult area, as hearing them and testing them and forming opinions is not always easy, particularly as one usually has to buy them and install them in one's own instrument before being able to hear whether they achieve the desired sound. In that way, the myriad of makes and models available can seem daunting, but it is certainly good to have options and variety available.

As always with music, best thing is to use your ears, learn to listen well and see where the journey takes you. Don't get caught up in internet bragging rights or hype over particular brands, seek what you think is going to work for you and don't worry too much about what it is or where it came from. SD is an awesome manufacturer with a very large range of products, all of which elicit very good responses from users. BKP are simply one of many other companies who perhaps specialise within a narrower field in the bigger picture.

well spoken
:beerchug:

 

[uOpt]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

Don't get me wrong!
If we are talking about regular production pickups and that classic PAF tone, I have no doubt: 59's have some magic complex sonic textures that I cannot find in 57's or PAF Pro or other PAF-like pickups I checked.
I cannot compare them to other SD humbuckers (PGs, C5, CC, etc).

I love the 59'. The 59' neck is a raw sounding pickup. If you have a nice tube amp, in its sweet spot, when the tube begins to break, randomly, some notes explode as fireworks; the sounds seem to be boiling inside, moving in different directions and, from time to time, a sonic bubble explodes on the surface, feeding the tube at the right level, with a beauty that makes me smile full of satisfaction.

The only that I don't like in the 59's is that can be confussing, played under gain and volume at full. Notes are not well distinguished when playing chords under medium-high gain. Not very clean notes when played on clean mode. This pickup in series with other humbucker becomes absolutelly muddy an dark (if not splitted).

I find the 57' very nice working for classic stuff, it does 70's rock absolutelly well but, hasn't that raw growling sonic bubbles that the 59' has. Has a very previsible sound (works fine, no magic).
In the same league, I find the PAF Pro. Neat work but, no magic, sonically plain.

I HAVEN'T TRIED ANY CUSTOM pickup from Dimarzio, Gibson or Seymour Duncan so, I cannot compare BK to them, only to regular production pickups that I also tried.

IMHO, with the mule, I am getting that magic that I love in the 59' but, that magic sonic bubbles seem to explode in several directions, not only on the surface (that's what people means with 3D sound). The notes are clearly distingishable at any gain level. Every string is clearly heared.
Both BK work fine, splitted to any coil (with distinguishable different voice for each coil), out-of-phase and parallel/series with the other.
Every alternative wiring seems to have an usable sound.

And then... it cames my personal experience (as said in other forum).
I mounted those pickups in an LP-like guitar (Prestige Heritage Standard) with my "Hermetico's LP Exchanger 3" wiring mod, substituting a 59' neck (that I loved a lot) and a JB (that loved/hated).

I tried the guitar in a practicing room (in a building that has a pool of practicing rooms), as I already did with the same guitar, same amp in same building but different pickups.

In a rest moment, I heard someone knocking the door. The band that was in the room at left hand of my room wanted me to join them. They said me that this was the SECOND time that they were knocking the door (I was so excited playing that only heard my pickups, LOL).

Tried with some VOX modeling amp (emulating Marshall JCM-800, surpresivelly nice sounding!!!), with some solid-state amps and with my Koch Studiotone combo. The pickups sound really plane and lifeless with the SS combos, worked very very well with the modeled JCM-800 and absolutelly magical with the Koch (all-tube, class A).

Has SD a CUSTOM humbucker that sounds as good or even better than these two BK's?. Probably yes, dunno.
Has Dimarzio a CUSTOM humbucker that sounds as good or even better than these two BK's?. Probably not, dunno.
Has Gibson a CUSTOM humbucker that sounds as good or even better than these two BK's?. Probably yes, dunno.
Have other boutique manufacturers a humbucker that sounds as good or even better than these tow BK's?. Probably yes, dunno.

I wish I can test every pickup in the market (for free, please, I have not money enough) but, by now, I found my wanted sound.

So, I can only share here my personal experience, guided by my personal tastes. That's all.

Good post worth a full quote. Your views on the '59 are spot on.

That "3D", or sparkle like a call it, is something that is in the boutique pickups, and only some production pickups have it partially (namely '59 and PG).

I can assure you you'll love the 78, Ants and the lighter WCRs.

 

[jimijames]

Re: What do Bareknuckle pickups have that SDs don't?

How are BKP defining "hand-wound," anyway? 'Cause if the hand part is simply guiding the wire onto the bobbin, isn't that pretty much "scatter-wound"? I guess it's possible that they really do hold a pup in one hand and wrap wire around it with the other but that seems hideously error-prone, at least. Outside of legendary meth-heads bearing Dutch surnames, does anybody actually do that?

You can hand-wind a pickup without scatter winding it. Using you hands means that it's going to be more inaccurate than a machine, but you can still approximate an even wind. Scatterwinding is where you intentionally lay the wire in an errant fashion - i.e you're trying to scatter the wind when you're laying it down. Hand wound pickups will have some inherent scatter, but when people talk about scatter-winding, they're exaggerating it compared with a true vintage-wound pickup.

However, it does sound better - kind of vintage enhanced, if you will.