What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I wrote an original song where the last chord in the progression goes out of key but sounds good, and i'd like to understand why.

The progression is: Bb - Dm - Gm - E7. Also important to note is that when I play the 1st 2 chords in arpeggiated fashion, I play an E natural note as a passing tone on each of those chords. Vs an Eb.

I've used the Hal Leonard Chord Wheel book to arrive at what I *believe* is the key / mode for the song (see pic)... While acknowledging that the combo of a Bb note, E note and G# note all being present in this progression makes it so that no key on the wheel is a 100% fit. Given all that, the closest match seems to be: D natural minor mode of F major. But like I said, even that doesn't include the E major in my progression.

The wheel says that the E chord in the key of F should be a diminished chord, diatonically speaking, whereas mine is a major. The Chord Wheel book talks about some common substitution types , e.g. making the ii or iii a major instead of a minor, and the tritone substitution for the chords in a key that have dominant 7th's instead of major 7th's. But this E7 substitution doesn't seem to fit any of these.

Does anyone have any insights into what explains how/why that E7 works? Did I identify the wrong key/mode? Or is that E7 just an "accidental" that works without anything more to explain it?

Thanks

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Sounds cool! You could look at it like it's all in Bb. So it goes I, iii, vi, then to an accidental the #4 which sounds like it could lead into the V7.

 

[Mincer]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Well, using tritone substitution, E7 is can be subbed for a Bb7.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Well, using tritone substitution, E7 can be subbed for a Bb7.

But I don't see a Bb7 in the first place, diatonically (?) Per the Chord Wheel , that Bb would be a major 7th, not dominant 7th (?)

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

A lot of creativity has to do with non diatonic chords.

 

[Mincer]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Actually, it is common to use a dom7 chord as the I, especially in blues progressions. We get used to hearing it, even though it isn't diatonically 'correct'. But hey, we get used to the sound of minor scales over those very same chords, too.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Sounds cool! You could look at it like it's all in Bb. So it goes I, iii, vi, then to an accidental the #4 which sounds like it could lead into the V7.

Thanks for the compliment Clint55.

I think you are onto something here....

That E7 - if looked at as the Flat 5 of Bb tonic like you said, is serving to pull the listener's ear for a resolve to the tonic (Bb) which turns out to be the chord that follows the E7. Nice work.

Since i use the E note (vs Eb) during the 1st two chords, I am also thinking this is Bb Lydian mode of Key of F, vs Key of Bb (Ionian) which has a Eb instead of an E.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

With reference to your e note over Bb and g: It's common in jazz to use the #4 note, or lydian mode, over the I chord even though it doesn't represent a key change. And it's even more common to use the natural 6, or dorian, over minor chords.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

It's common in jazz to use the #4 note over the I chord even though it doesn't represent a key change.

[EDIT] as a passing tone only though, right?

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Forget the Mel Bay thingy. The key is found by hearing and understanding the melodic framework of the song – not by finding the scale into which more notes and chords fall neatly in to place than any other scale.

Most songs do not fall neatly into a key, if you follow that thing. Get rid of it for now, because it is obviously warping your understanding of what a key actually is. To find the key, stop thinking technically, and just listen.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

P.S. That said, and FWIW, based on the way it sounds when played, your song seems like it's structurally rooted around Dm. It's likely in Dm, starting on the minor 6 chord. A major 2 chord used in a minor key is fairly common, especially as a turnaround device or as a transitionary chord on the way to the 5. A major 2 chord is probably the second most common "out-of-key" chord used in minor keys, after a major 5 chord.

Mind you, without knowing the melody, it's not possible to say 100%.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

[EDIT] as a passing tone only though, right?

No, it's common to have a major 7 #11 chord, or use lydian mode over a major chord and it doesn't have to indicate that it's the 4 chord. Chromaticism makes the song more interesting over the main key like itsabass explained.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

The chord progression is in modal jazz, rather than chordal, and yours is in Bb Lydian Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A. Hence the E.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Forget the Mel Bay thingy. The key is found by hearing and understanding the melodic framework of the song – not by finding the scale into which more notes and chords fall neatly in to place than any other scale.

Most songs do not fall neatly into a key, if you follow that thing. Get rid of it for now, because it is obviously warping your understanding of what a key actually is. To find the key, stop thinking technically, and just listen.

NO. You have to think within the box first before thinking outside the box. Before coloring outside of the border a kid has to stay within the border.

That's why Picasso's mindless meandering is regarded as masterpiece, not an output of a schizo.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Forget the Mel Bay thingy. The key is found by hearing and understanding the melodic framework of the song – not by finding the scale into which more notes and chords fall neatly in to place than any other scale.

Most songs do not fall neatly into a key, if you follow that thing. Get rid of it for now, because it is obviously warping your understanding of what a key actually is. To find the key, stop thinking technically, and just listen.

You've got a great point in that if I had listened more times with an open mind vs pre-conceived notions, i should have already recognized what Tonic the progression is resolving to.

Having done that last night, it feels to me like it resolves to the Bb, not the Dmin as I originally thought.

But I would still say the Wheel is more helpful than harmful , at least as a way to confirm what your ears are telling you. It also brings some unde. And rstanding as to why the chords work together as they do. And, beyond knowing that the Tonic is major or minor, the Wheel helps understand which of the 3 major modes it as or 4 monor modes it is.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

This is the type of thread I wanna see more of on this forum. If more people asked questions along these lines I might be bothered to learn more music theory.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

Forget the Mel Bay thingy. The key is found by hearing and understanding the melodic framework of the song – not by finding the scale into which more notes and chords fall neatly in to place than any other scale.

Most songs do not fall neatly into a key, if you follow that thing. Get rid of it for now, because it is obviously warping your understanding of what a key actually is. To find the key, stop thinking technically, and just listen.

Following this advice is definitely deadly to one's understanding about music, seriously.

Yeah if you are satisfied with 12-bar blues the whole time, listening should work. But some people aspire to transcend beyond the limitation of popular music.

Let's see if 'just listen' alone would help you figure out Coltrane's "Giant Steps", or Bill Evan's "Nardis".

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

NO. You have to think within the box first before thinking outside the box. Before coloring outside of the border a kid has to stay within the border.

That's why Picasso's mindless meandering is regarded as masterpiece, not an output of a schizo.

This reply doesn't logically follow anything I posted.

I did not say anything about boxes or borders, boxes, lines, or whatever other metaphors. You're going off on a tangent there.

I most certainly never suggested anything about ditching the basic understanding of musical theory. I said to lose the chord wheel, because it is leading him astray, and listen to the song. I said that a key is not simply a collection of certain notes that are used. Knowing the key requires human judgment of the melodic patterns in the song, not just a robotic technical analysis of the notes used throughout. This is how we know that a song is in the key of one mode, versus the key of anther mode that uses the same exact notes: human judgment, i.e. listening.

I also stated that most songs do not fall neatly into place, with every note in every chord "belonging" to a certain scale. Stuff like "Three Blind Mice" does. Real-world music that most people will be playing usually does not. Even "simple" trash pop often contains accidentals.

Following this advice is definitely deadly to one's understanding about music, seriously.

Yeah if you are satisfied with 12-bar blues the whole time, listening should work. But some people aspire to transcend beyond the limitation of popular music.

Let's see if 'just listen' alone would help you figure out Coltrane's "Giant Steps", or Bill Evan's "Nardis".

The advice to listen to your melody and to use your human judgment to determine the key is not at all deadly to ones understanding of music. If followed, it has exactly the opposite effect; it deepens ones understanding of music.

Your statement that keys can only be determined by ear in extremely simplistic music is way off the mark. Unless you're talking about experimental noise music or something, or music that is purely rhythm, there is always going to be a tonal framework to wrap your ear and your head around.

But again, the point is not so grand as all of this. It's just that music rarely falls neatly into a key as listed on a key wheel (and you certainly pointed out two extreme examples of this), and that human judgment of tonal patterns is the final word in what establishes the key. It's what tells you you're in the key of one mode and not another (e.g. you're in Am and not in C), even though a bunch of modes share the same signature/notes.

Bottom line: We aren't talking rocket science here. The OP's song is simple enough that a key should be able to be quickly determined by a deep listen to the melody over the chords, not by diving in to a printed technical analysis in order to try to find a scale into which all of his notes neatly fall.

To the OP, the best thing you can do to get a solid answer from us is to post a recording of the song. We need to hear how it is structured melodically in order to firmly establish what key it's in.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

I most certainly never suggested anything about ditching the basic understanding of musical theory.



Most songs do not fall neatly into a key, if you follow that thing. Get rid of it for now, because it is obviously warping your understanding of what a key actually is. To find the key, stop thinking technically, and just listen.

This statement sounds like you do: "The key is found by hearing and understanding the melodic framework of the song – not by finding the scale into which more notes and chords fall neatly in to place than any other scale."

I said to lose the chord wheel, because it is leading him astray, and listen to the song.

No. He used his 'humane' judgement first, and got led astray; then resorted to the chord wheel.

most songs do not fall neatly into place, with every note in every chord "belonging" to a certain scale.

That's why you can't rely on your 'humane' judgement alone. When you go astray, you resort to music theory, scale, chords, anything 'inhumane'.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: What musical theory concept explains why this chord substitution works?

To the OP, the best thing you can do to get a solid answer from us is to post a recording of the song. We need to hear how it is structured melodically in order to firmly establish what key it's in.

Thanks, but i'm all set. See prior reply #s 7 & 15.