What's The Audible Diff , If Any??
- Thread starter zozoe
- Start date
Teleplayer
Active member
It's quite annoying when the tone control affect the volume, so I really dislike that idea.
freefrog
Well-known member
The tone control affects the volume in this case only because it "re EQ's" the tone.
So, once understood and if applied to good PU's, 50s wiring is super useful with humbuckers: it gives access to transparent clean tones when both controls are lowered. That's how I could play "a Fool For Your Stockings" on stage with a spot on clean sound on my LP while the original tune was supposedly played on a hard tail Strat by Billy Gibbons. And I remember him playing the same tune on Pearly Gates here in the 80's, with the same spot on clean tone for the same reasons.
With single coils, 50s wiring is less often evoked because it thins out the tone but the solution has still its advocates: https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/gibson-50s-wiring-on-a-stratocaster
So, once understood and if applied to good PU's, 50s wiring is super useful with humbuckers: it gives access to transparent clean tones when both controls are lowered. That's how I could play "a Fool For Your Stockings" on stage with a spot on clean sound on my LP while the original tune was supposedly played on a hard tail Strat by Billy Gibbons. And I remember him playing the same tune on Pearly Gates here in the 80's, with the same spot on clean tone for the same reasons.
With single coils, 50s wiring is less often evoked because it thins out the tone but the solution has still its advocates: https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/gibson-50s-wiring-on-a-stratocaster
Teleplayer
Active member
While modern wiring can adjust the peak of the pickup LC resonance (a.k.a. Q factor), 50s wiring / tone control has a more broad effect which is shelving the entire frequency range of the guitar's response when the volume is less than maximum. If it was like a treble control on proper audio equipment, it would apply at some "center frequency", beyond which frequencies that cause the brightness will be cut. The 50's wiring scheme does not have a well defined center frequency. When the volume is less than maximum, the tone control will typically roll off everything above 50~100Hz. Because it affects the entire frequency range, it's having a big effect on the overall volume. I'd say its an undesirable interaction from tone-control to volume control, and vice-versa as well. That is why I am not a fan.
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freefrog
Well-known member
A possible "problem" with 50's wiring is that its action also depends on things like the inner stray capacitance of the pickup coil(s) involved. It's never mentioned (because a current internet commonplace claims that coil capacitance doesn"t matter)... But it's objectively the case and that's why I've described 50s wiring as useful "if applied to good PU's".
That observation being done, I globally agree with your analysis and it inspires me opposite conclusions as a player. One man's trash is another man's gold, de gustibus et de coloribus non est disputandum, and so on.
Teleplayer
Active member
Are you saying the 50s wiring applies less loading to damp the pickups natural resonance?
There is some online pickup analysis which makes the assumption that guitars are always played with the volume at 10/10ths. That can be misleading IMO as its often a false assumption.
I can understand people may use the guitar tone control as an effect. Personally I'd rather use it to fine tune to the pickup resonance - I'm probably OCD. If we only need to apply broad EQ, it could be done downstream using some kind of effect pedal, or the tone controls on one amplifier channel.
There is some online pickup analysis which makes the assumption that guitars are always played with the volume at 10/10ths. That can be misleading IMO as its often a false assumption.
I can understand people may use the guitar tone control as an effect. Personally I'd rather use it to fine tune to the pickup resonance - I'm probably OCD. If we only need to apply broad EQ, it could be done downstream using some kind of effect pedal, or the tone controls on one amplifier channel.
freefrog
Well-known member
I wasn't trying to "say" (IOW: "claim") anything. I reply to this topic only to share some info that anyone can check through personal experience / experiment / simulations.
The logics of RC filtering being what it is, the position of a tone control relatively to the pickup and volume pot will necessarily lead this tone control to affect pickup resonance in different ways, not only by damping it but also by shifting the perceived output peak in some cases - like those involving series capacitors and... 50s wiring.
Below is the measured Rz (electrically induced through an ultra low impedance exciter) of a Gibson style HB with V & T (volume & tone) full up through a fairly capacitive long cable, then with the volume @ 50% + a treble bleed cap (light green) then with 50's wiring (tone full up and vol. @ 50% in pink, both controls @ 50% in red).
It's not a refined test and it would be rejected elsewhere because I don't use no "integrator" circuit (that I find useless, to be honest) but at least it shows what happens with 50s wiring: lowering the tone control actually extends the high range when the volume pot is lowered, making the humbucker closer to a dampened single coil. As a "pre-gain" effect, it's not reproductible with the tone stack of an amp. And to mimic this, an effect pedal should have to flatten the high mids then to promote high frequencies, like "pickups simulators" in Boss GT MFX's... Not as simple as it seems.
So and to come back to the original question: this pic translates visually the audible "tone cleaning" effect that anyone can experiment with 50s wiring (by comparison with a treble bleed cap in this case). ;-)
The logics of RC filtering being what it is, the position of a tone control relatively to the pickup and volume pot will necessarily lead this tone control to affect pickup resonance in different ways, not only by damping it but also by shifting the perceived output peak in some cases - like those involving series capacitors and... 50s wiring.
Below is the measured Rz (electrically induced through an ultra low impedance exciter) of a Gibson style HB with V & T (volume & tone) full up through a fairly capacitive long cable, then with the volume @ 50% + a treble bleed cap (light green) then with 50's wiring (tone full up and vol. @ 50% in pink, both controls @ 50% in red).
It's not a refined test and it would be rejected elsewhere because I don't use no "integrator" circuit (that I find useless, to be honest) but at least it shows what happens with 50s wiring: lowering the tone control actually extends the high range when the volume pot is lowered, making the humbucker closer to a dampened single coil. As a "pre-gain" effect, it's not reproductible with the tone stack of an amp. And to mimic this, an effect pedal should have to flatten the high mids then to promote high frequencies, like "pickups simulators" in Boss GT MFX's... Not as simple as it seems.
So and to come back to the original question: this pic translates visually the audible "tone cleaning" effect that anyone can experiment with 50s wiring (by comparison with a treble bleed cap in this case). ;-)
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Teleplayer, you certainly can have your opinion and you can like what you like. I personally love 50s wiring in my guitars with humbuckers. I like how it preserves the highs as the volume is lowered by the vol pot. I also like independent volumes in a 2 vol pot guitar. Some people hate independent volumes. No problem with that either. Some like Les Pauls, some Strats, some Teles, some even like pointies. All of this is a good thing. It's "diversity".
