Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

marytakesadrag

marytakesadrag

New member
So a long time ago, I soldered 2 Dimarzio humbuckers in my Ibanez RG which has a CRL 3-way switch, 1 vol, and 1 tone. When I was done, the output and bass seemed low on both pickups and there was no sound from the middle position. At first, I didn't like the tone and had put it off to fix it another day, but I've grown to like it.

I'm curious, what exactly is going on? I checked if I wired it in parallel but I did not (black & white are together and taped). Is it out of phase? I thought that was only possible between 2 pickups / in the middle position. Note: I've tried these humbuckers in a different guitar and can say with certainty that the wiring is the culprit. CRL's terminals are reversed from what is shown on SD's diagram so I reversed my wiring to compensate; ironically, that was my mistake.

If anyone knows, that'd be great. I want to see how the same thing would sound on a different guitar; however, it has a 3-way toggle (not blade) so not so easy!
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

There used to be a Japanese-made lever selector named YM-30 and YM-50. It was a rip-off of the CRL design except that the poles were on the "wrong" sides compared to the American switch. In effect, the common terminal is at the "wrong" end.

I am reluctant to comment on your wiring without seeing photographs of it.
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

Funkfingers said:
There used to be a Japanese-made lever selector named YM-30 and YM-50. It was a rip-off of the CRL design except that the poles were on the "wrong" sides compared to the American switch. In effect, the common terminal is at the "wrong" end.

I am reluctant to comment on your wiring without seeing photographs of it.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's exactly what happened to me. SD's diagram doesn't show USA switches (blade or toggle) so they're reversed from my CRL switch.

Anyway, here's a diagram. Easier to see.

View attachment 72689
 
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Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

In my experience, the SD diagrams do illustrate American-made CRL blade/lever selector switches and no others.

Ibanez employs a wide variety of selector switch types on their guitars, from the budget models to the custom made exotic. One switch that almost never appears as stock in Ibanez guitars is the genuine US-made CRL two-pole, three- or five-position blade/lever.

Sometimes, Ibanez uses cheap, nasty CorTek switches. Some of their more involved circuits require special "superswitches" made by OTAX.
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

Funkfingers said:
In my experience, the SD diagrams do illustrate American-made CRL blade/lever selector switches and no others.

Ibanez employs a wide variety of selector switch types on their guitars, from the budget models to the custom made exotic. One switch that almost never appears as stock in Ibanez guitars is the genuine US-made CRL two-pole, three- or five-position blade/lever.

Sometimes, Ibanez uses cheap, nasty CorTek switches. Some of their more involved circuits require special "superswitches" made by OTAX.
Click to expand...

Just check the diagrams at the SD's website and you can clearly see it's reversed...

I bought a CRL switch, CTS pots, and Orange Drop cap for my Ibby so the electronics aren't stock.

Side note: read that a few guys at the Tele forum did the same mistake because of the diagrams being reversed in comparison to their CRL switch. They too didn't have any sound in the middle position. Just curious what this is so I can try to replicate it on a 3-way toggle which has less terminals than a 3-way blade
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

Attachment does not work.

You will have to forgive me. I do not have X-ray vision to see what is inside your modified Ibanez guitar from thousands of miles away.

Photographs, please.
 
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Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

Haha no worries.

Weird that the pic doesn't show. I'll just post an URL.

diagramoops.png
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

The results you are getting are exactly what I would expect if you wired your guitar like that diagram. That switch is American made, but you've got it wired as if it were the cheap knock-off that Funk referred to. Wire the switch as in this SD diagram and you'll get the switching that you desire:

https://docs.google.com/gview?embed.../uploads/2016/05/3-Way-Switch-Translation.pdf

Now, the sound you describe of each pickup is as if they were SD or Peavey pups, NOT Dimarzio. You are getting the split-coil sound. Are you sure they are Dmz pups?!

If you have a meter, remove each pup from the circuit and check the resistance between the green and red wires. Depending on which exact pups you have, you will be surprised to find out that the ohms are about half what you expected.

One more thing...don't be so dogmatic and quick to assume that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, including Funkfingers, Seymour Duncan, and CRL (and now, probably myself as well. But that's ok, it's your guitar and we're just trying to help). Keep an open mind and try what I have suggested.
 
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Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

:headbang:
GuitarDoc said:
The results you are getting are exactly what I would expect if you wired your guitar like that diagram. That switch is American made, but you've got it wired as if it were the cheap knock-off that Funk referred to. Wire the switch as in this SD diagram and you'll get the switching that you desire:

https://docs.google.com/gview?embed.../uploads/2016/05/3-Way-Switch-Translation.pdf

Now, the sound you describe of each pickup is as if they were SD or Peavey pups, NOT Dimarzio. You are getting the split-coil sound. Are you sure they are Dmz pups?!

If you have a meter, remove each pup from the circuit and check the resistance between the green and red wires. Depending on which exact pups you have, you will be surprised to find out that the ohms are about half what you expected.

One more thing...don't be so dogmatic and quick to assume that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, including Funkfingers, Seymour Duncan, and CRL (and now, probably myself as well. But that's ok, it's your guitar and we're just trying to help). Keep an open mind and try what I have suggested.
Click to expand...


My bad, I didn't mean any disrespect. I've seen Funkfingers around several times and know he's helpful all the time. He has helped me in the past.

Nevertheless, CRL switches are reversed from what's seen on SDs diagram. That's a fact. Not sure if all American companies are reversed but CRL is for sure.

CRLVSOak_Grigsby_zps991e4218.jpg
Screenshot_2016-06-03-10-06-41.jpg

Furthermore, I find what you said a little ironic though. But I'll apologize to Funkfingers if I came off like a dick.

I thought Funk and I were being friendly. I must be completely oblivious... Then again Im a little naive and clueless especially when reading tone online / from written text.

Honestly, I'm a nice guy. Assume I'm stupid before assuming I'm being a dick :friday:
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

So I tried the multimeter last night and posted on a different forum (posted on 2 to expand my resources - a lot of gurus in both)

Anyway so here's my response. Keep in mind I want to replicate this wiring mistake like a happy accident mod on a 3 way toggle but issue is, toggles have less terminals than blade switches

-------
Like I mentioned before, I have tested the pickups in a different guitar (Warmoth) to see if it'll sound different. With proper wiring, it does sound different (prior to realizing my incorrect wiring FYI). Well, I never moved those pickups back and since the Warmoth is the guitar with the 3-way toggle that I want to do this happy accident on, I decided to move my Ibby's 3-way blade switch into the Warmoth (I just have it hanging from the control cavity) to see exactly how that "mod" would sound.

Well, it sounds much different than on my Ibby. Maybe tonewood has a much more significant factor to tone than I realized (they have the same hardware and strings). However, the bridge pickup isn't really being read by my multimeter (even though sound does come out) and when it does read, it's very brief and the number is half of its supposed dc resistance. I tested the multimeter on the neck pickup and on a different guitar and it works fine. I tried resoldering to no avail. I might need to buy new pots & a switch. I've reused them so many times... I think I might have fried something... If that's the case, that most likely why it sounds so different in my Warmoth.

----

With that said, I understand im a dumb arse and there's many variables I haven't addressed. Either way I'm confused haha. Just wondering if the wiring on the switch did anything or not. Thought it might be figured out by looking at a diagram or if anyone had similar experience. Other wise, don't want to waste y'all time. I have many things I need to address.
 
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Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

GuitarDoc said:
don't be so dogmatic and quick to assume that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, including Funkfingers, Seymour Duncan, and CRL (and now, probably myself as well. But that's ok, it's your guitar and we're just trying to help). Keep an open mind and try what I have suggested.
Click to expand...

marytakesadrag said:
My bad, I didn't mean any disrespect. I've seen Funkfingers around several times and know he's helpful all the time. He has helped me in the past.
Click to expand...

People are free to disagree with me any time they like.



I would like to know where this diagram originated.

View attachment 72700

I have never seen any two-pole, three or five position selector switch whose terminals follow the convention shown above. The mechanical means by which the contacts are bridged by the wiper makes this numbering system physically impossible.

In the case of the CRL switch, using the numbering convention from the diagram above, I would label the terminals,

4123
1234

marytakesadrag said:
Just wondering if the wiring on the switch did anything or not. Thought it might be figured out by looking at a diagram or if anyone had similar experience. Otherwise, don't want to waste y'all time. I have many things I need to address.
Click to expand...

A diagram is a two dimensional representation of what is supposed to be in a circuit. Photographs would have made abundantly clear what had actually been done in the guitar - in terms of both the wiring job and the components used.
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

Funkfingers said:
People are free to disagree with me any time they like.



I would like to know where this diagram originated.

View attachment 72700
Click to expand...

Haha cool, glad to hear it. One cannot learn if we cannot disagree with each other, right?

Anyway, I found this image online... Sorry, lame I know haha. The thing is, I have a CRL switch in front of me and I've read on the Tele forum that confirm my findings. My word isn't good enough apparently lol so I did a quick search on the Internet to show you further confirmation. The above image was 1 of the images that I found. Here are a few more:

201323-ce01108863bd1e63724d95b221d881d2.jpgo9enlv.jpgts0153lugmap.gif

I have a big hunch that I'm right :D Or according to some, perhaps I'm just not open minded enough :9:

Funkfingers said:
I have never seen any two-pole, three or five position selector switch whose terminals follow the convention shown above. The mechanical means by which the contacts are bridged by the wiper makes this numbering system physically impossible.

In the case of the CRL switch, using the numbering convention from the diagram above, I would label the terminals,

4123
1234
Click to expand...

Yep, seems that way. Thanks for the info!

Funkfingers said:
A diagram is a two dimensional representation of what is supposed to be in a circuit. Photographs would have made abundantly clear what had actually been done in the guitar - in terms of both the wiring job and the components used.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't clarify but the diagram that I provided is how I wired my guitar - not how it's "supposed to be." I actually made it myself. Still want to see a picture? I suppose I can get one even though I think that's super redundant and going to be a hundreds times harder to see... especially since you don't have x-ray vision :9:

Okay, okay, just pulling your leg. I'll get a pic.
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

The terminal stagger, as your diagram calls it, is irrelevant to the functioning of the switch.

The CRL versus "imported" switch comparison drawings perfectly illustrate the difference between the US and the old Japanese YM type switch I mentioned in post #2.

Schaller Megaswitches are a law unto themselves. So are some OTAX selector switches.
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

OK, let's start over. But first of all take a look at your quote (below) and keep it in mind.

marytakesadrag said:
:Nevertheless, CRL switches are reversed from what's seen on SDs diagram. That's a fact. Not sure if all American companies are reversed but CRL is for sure.
Click to expand...

You repeatedly say that it is a fact that CRL switches are reversed from other American switches and from Seymour's diagrams. Why can't you see that this is incorrect? You assume that CRL is wrong, that Seymour is wrong, that Funkfingers is wrong, and that I am wrong, and that other sources are also wrong. If they seem to be wrong to you, perhaps you are misinterpreting the data.

I referred to you as being dogmatic... "Dogmatic" means that one is strongly expressing an opinion without factual evidence to back it up. This leaves one a bit close minded thinking he is correct and everyone else is wrong. Even if you were right (which you aren't) you would still fit the definition of being dogmatic.


marytakesadrag said:
Furthermore, I find what you said a little ironic though. But I'll apologize to Funkfingers if I came off like a dick.

I thought Funk and I were being friendly. I must be completely oblivious... Then again Im a little naive and clueless especially when reading tone online / from written text.

Honestly, I'm a nice guy. Assume I'm stupid before assuming I'm being a dick :friday:
Click to expand...


Nowhere did I call you a "dick" or even assume such a thing. I am sure you must be a nice guy. But when you are asking for our help and wisdom, you are closed to accepting our knowledge. We can't help someone who is unwilling to accept it. Here is exactly what I said:

"One more thing...don't be so dogmatic and quick to assume that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, including Funkfingers, Seymour Duncan, and CRL (and now, probably myself as well. But that's ok, it's your guitar and we're just trying to help). Keep an open mind and try what I have suggested"

How you wired your guitar (as in the diagram in post #8) is wrong. And as I informed you before, you are getting the expected results from wiring it according to that diagram. Remember...in order to get the desired final results, you have to start with the proper foundation (wiring scheme). Your first diagram in your post #10 shows the correct wiring configuration, but the incorrect terminal numbering. The second diagram in post #10 (Seymour Duncan's) is correct in every way. And the bottom left diagram ("electroswitch by CRL") of your post #13 is also correctly numbered and labelled.

Your multimeter testing would confirm that you have the bridge pup (at least) wired in split mode, giving about half the resistance as expected from the usual series wired pup, and with less bass and body and punch to the sound. But it is acting erratically. Did you remove the pups from the circuit before testing them? If not, you will get different results depending on what position your switch is in.

Seems like what I expected in the beginning is all true. Yet you refuse to accept my help and even accuse me of assuming you are a "dick". Not very nice on your part.
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

marytakesadrag said:
View attachment 72708View attachment 72709
Click to expand...

Eureka!

The confusion stems entirely from misinterpreting the diagrams above.

The contacts of the vintage and new CRL switches both follow the sequence illustrated above as Electroswitch by CRL. The difference is that the new version is physically one "step" out compared to the older one. (Don't accept my word for this. Look at the switch, shift the lever and see how the contacts move.)

The contact layout illustrated above as "import" is the Eighties Japanese YM-30/-50 type. The offset between the terminals of each pole is set such that the 1 and 2 terminals on one pole lay beyond the 0 pole of the other.


​
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

I'm a little lost... If I'm incorrect somewhere, just pardon my dense head haha.

The difference in the stagger from SD's diagram and CRL switch threw me off... and being the genius that I am (cough), I was like, well I need to reverse to compensate! That is why there is no output in the middle position. Guys at the Tele forum have done the same mistake. I am aware of this mistake and assumed perhaps it was the culprit for this "happy accident" tone that I was also getting. I thought maybe if I showed how I wired it, someone could simply say, oh yah because you did it wrong it created a phasing issue or an output issue...etc... Note, I wanted to reproduce this "happy accident" in another guitar.

Speaking of which, the low output and low bass coming from my humbucker.... not related to the switch wiring... My genius continues.... I put the neck pickup in the bridge position.

Well, that's was much more simple than I expected. Don't know why I didn't think of that earlier but then again, I never imagined I'd make such a mistake. Damn Dimarzio... need to put NAMES and not model codes on their baseplates (see how I'm throwing the blame? haha)

So anyone need a super tight, punchy (just pump the bass in the amp), and aggressive metal humbucker... Dimarzio D-activator neck in the bridge position of a Mahogany guitar is amazing!

Anyway, thank you everyone!
 
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Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

I'm glad you got it.

Some people actually like the tone of a neck pup in the bridge. Usually, that's too thin for my liking. But occasionally I'll like the tone of a bridge pup in the neck.
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

Wait, the issue (wiring of the 3-way aside) is that it's a neck pickup in the bridge?

One day I'll finally accept and apply Occam's Razor and the Zebra diagnosis. ;)
 
Re: Wiring mistake sounds good! Please help identify

marytakesadrag said:
Speaking of which, the low output and low bass coming from my humbucker.... not related to the switch wiring... My genius continues.... I put the neck pickup in the bridge position.
Click to expand...

But then how do you account for the fact that the resistance reading was half of what it should be? If the bridge pup was double the resistance of the neck pup, and you accidentally mounted the bridge pup in the neck position and the neck pup in the bridge position as you say, then you would get this result. But...you would have initially been complaining to high Heaven about the extreme output and muddiness of your neck pup compared to the clarity of your bridge pup (the way you had them mounted in reverse)! You never even hinted that this was a problem, however.

No, it would appear that there is something else going on that you didn't tell us about.

Too irrational, too many inconsistencies, too many suppositions, too many jumping to conclusions, too much disregard for reason and logic, too much denial of facts. :chairshot
 
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