Wiring P Rail into 5 Way Switch w or w/out Triple Shot?

[billlorentzen]

I intend to add a P Rail in the neck of a Godin LGX SA, which comes stock with 2 Duncan hum pups, wired to a 5 way switch as follows: hum, single, hum-hum mix, single, hum.

I have a triple shot, but I'm not sure how to use it with the 5 way switch, or even if the TS is necessary. Ideally, I would like a hybrid approach with the the triple shot and the 5 way switch, giving me lots of options as well as quick access with the 5 way, but my mind reels when I try to figure out how to do it. I know some guys live for this stuff, so if you're a wiring wiz, I'd love some suggestions or a diagram!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wiring P Rail into 5 Way Switch w or w/out Triple Shot?

The PR is essentially 2 pickups on one base - a P-90 and a single coil rail. They are 2-conductor each, with no internal connection as with a humbucker (to my knowledge).

A standard 5-way is a 3-way with automatic bridges between 1 and 2 (B and M), and 2 and 3 (M and N). While you can get auto-split on 4, you have to decide which one you will kill - the P or the Rail.

A 4-pole 5-way superswitch could do it, but you'd still need a mini-toggle or push-pull to select an option.


If you wire the PR to a TripleShot, wire the TS to the standard 5-way just as you would any other 2-conductor pickup. The TS will control all the switching related to the PR directly (series/parallel/etc). However, with a standard 5-way and TS, both 4 and 5 will offer the same options. If 3 is covering hum-hum already, then you could add a bridge splitter to 4, and then use the TS to select which coil works with the split bridge. Once you move to 5, the bridge drops out, leaving you with whatever option the TS is set for on the PR.
So, 2 and 4 split the bridge, except that 2 is the split bridge alone, and 4 is the split bridge with the PR, with the Triple Shot selecting between the PRail's various modes.

 

[billlorentzen]

Re: Wiring P Rail into 5 Way Switch w or w/out Triple Shot?

The PR is essentially 2 pickups on one base - a P-90 and a single coil rail. They are 2-conductor each, with no internal connection as with a humbucker (to my knowledge).

A standard 5-way is a 3-way with automatic bridges between 1 and 2 (B and M), and 2 and 3 (M and N). While you can get auto-split on 4, you have to decide which one you will kill - the P or the Rail.

A 4-pole 5-way superswitch could do it, but you'd still need a mini-toggle or push-pull to select an option.


If you wire the PR to a TripleShot, wire the TS to the standard 5-way just as you would any other 2-conductor pickup. The TS will control all the switching related to the PR directly (series/parallel/etc). However, with a standard 5-way and TS, both 4 and 5 will offer the same options. If 3 is covering hum-hum already, then you could add a bridge splitter to 4, and then use the TS to select which coil works with the split bridge. Once you move to 5, the bridge drops out, leaving you with whatever option the TS is set for on the PR.
So, 2 and 4 split the bridge, except that 2 is the split bridge alone, and 4 is the split bridge with the PR, with the Triple Shot selecting between the PRail's various modes.

Thanks for the deep explanation (I realize your time is valuable and I don't take your help for granted)! A further question: would it be possible to make whatever is selected on the TS one of the options on the 5 way, and also split/run some of the p rail's 4 wires direct to the 5 way? For example, 1=neck H, 2=any of the complete range of options on the TS, 3=H+H, 4=TS+split bridge, 5=bridge hum? It seems like, with enough wire, this could work, but I'm wondering if you can split the routing this way without losing output (maybe that's a dumb question, but I don't know much about electronics)?

I believe the guitar has what you call a super switch (2 "layers", if you will, rather than the usual single layer).

Thanks!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wiring P Rail into 5 Way Switch w or w/out Triple Shot?

Superswitch has 2 layers (wafers) and a buttload of prongs sticking off of it. Should be 24 of them (5 for each pole and one common for each pole).

Theoretically you could run jumpers from the TrispleShot's pickup-connecting board to the 5-way, but I don't think you'd be able to run them to the same point as the 2-conductor output of the TripleShot.

As well, you could, if you wanted, run the Bridge pickup only to 1, one half of the PRail to 3, the other half to 5, and they'd combine on 4 (leaving the Triple Shot completely out of the picture).
Whatever you set on 3 would auto-combine with the bridge on 2. If you set 2 to auto-split the bridge, you could do a Slutbucker.


If you really want to increase those suicidal urges, you can turn the Super Switch into 4 completely separate 5-way switches, with each pole selectable by a collection of push-pulls, or mini-toggles, or maybe even the TripleShot.
But like I said, most people would rather jump in front of a train than A) try to figure that out or B) try to actually do it.
I'd also suggest using a 5-way rotary instead of mini-toggles, though the TS idea has potential....

As for 4 different operating modes you can get (there are lots more to choose from):
1 - Standard 5-way 2-hum setup of B, 1/2 B, B + N, 1/2 N, N
2 - Standard 5-way 2-hum setup of B, 1/2 B, 1/2 B + 1/2 N, 1/2 N, N
3 - Standard 5-way 2-hum setup of B, 1/2 B, 1/2 B + N, 1/2 N, N
4 - B, B + N, N, B or N Parallel, Out-Of-Phase

Alternatively, you can run each pickup to its own pole, and combine them at the Triple Shot's 4-point connection board.

Pole 1 - Bridge pickup
1 - Full
2 - Split to slug coil
3 - Parallel
4 - Split to screw coil
5 - Phase Inverted with itself

Pole 2 - P-Rail
1 - P-90
2 - P+Rail
3 - Rail
4 - Parallel
5 - Phase Inverted against each other (remember, it's 2, 2, 2 pickups in one)

Pole 3 - Standard 5-way 2-hum
1 - Bridge
2 - Split Bridge
3 - Bridge + P-Rail
4 - P-90
5 - Rail

Pole 4 - Alternative 5-way 2-hum
1 - Bridge
2 - Split Bridge + P-90 Slutbucker
3 - Split Bridge + Rail Slutbucker
4 - P-90
5 - Rail

Run the Commons to the TS board. Use the switches to select which two poles are active at any given time, though if you had one switch selecting between 1 and 2, and the other between 3 and 4, you couldn't have 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 active at the same time.
You could only have 1 and 3, 1 and 4, 2 and 3, or 2 and 4.
You'd really have to map that out beforehand.

As well, many of these combinations for poles 1 and 2 may require using poles 3 and 4 to create the jumps. In that case, you'd run the commons to the contact board so each switch had only 1 pole, and you could turn that pole On or Off.
This has its own merits, as you flip one switch to get Bridge or P-Rail alone, rather than having to flick the 5-way 2 or 3 positions.
But if the pickup is not in the mode you wanted, then you're flipping a switch AND moving the 5-way 2 or 3 positions. While playing. In time. Guitar nerds would worship you, though.

 

[billlorentzen]

Re: Wiring P Rail into 5 Way Switch w or w/out Triple Shot?

Superswitch has 2 layers (wafers) and a buttload of prongs sticking off of it. Should be 24 of them (5 for each pole and one common for each pole).

Theoretically you could run jumpers from the TrispleShot's pickup-connecting board to the 5-way, but I don't think you'd be able to run them to the same point as the 2-conductor output of the TripleShot.

As well, you could, if you wanted, run the Bridge pickup only to 1, one half of the PRail to 3, the other half to 5, and they'd combine on 4 (leaving the Triple Shot completely out of the picture).
Whatever you set on 3 would auto-combine with the bridge on 2. If you set 2 to auto-split the bridge, you could do a Slutbucker.


If you really want to increase those suicidal urges, you can turn the Super Switch into 4 completely separate 5-way switches, with each pole selectable by a collection of push-pulls, or mini-toggles, or maybe even the TripleShot.
But like I said, most people would rather jump in front of a train than A) try to figure that out or B) try to actually do it.
I'd also suggest using a 5-way rotary instead of mini-toggles, though the TS idea has potential....

As for 4 different operating modes you can get (there are lots more to choose from):
1 - Standard 5-way 2-hum setup of B, 1/2 B, B + N, 1/2 N, N
2 - Standard 5-way 2-hum setup of B, 1/2 B, 1/2 B + 1/2 N, 1/2 N, N
3 - Standard 5-way 2-hum setup of B, 1/2 B, 1/2 B + N, 1/2 N, N
4 - B, B + N, N, B or N Parallel, Out-Of-Phase

Alternatively, you can run each pickup to its own pole, and combine them at the Triple Shot's 4-point connection board.

Pole 1 - Bridge pickup
1 - Full
2 - Split to slug coil
3 - Parallel
4 - Split to screw coil
5 - Phase Inverted with itself

Pole 2 - P-Rail
1 - P-90
2 - P+Rail
3 - Rail
4 - Parallel
5 - Phase Inverted against each other (remember, it's 2, 2, 2 pickups in one)

Pole 3 - Standard 5-way 2-hum
1 - Bridge
2 - Split Bridge
3 - Bridge + P-Rail
4 - P-90
5 - Rail

Pole 4 - Alternative 5-way 2-hum
1 - Bridge
2 - Split Bridge + P-90 Slutbucker
3 - Split Bridge + Rail Slutbucker
4 - P-90
5 - Rail

Run the Commons to the TS board. Use the switches to select which two poles are active at any given time, though if you had one switch selecting between 1 and 2, and the other between 3 and 4, you couldn't have 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 active at the same time.
You could only have 1 and 3, 1 and 4, 2 and 3, or 2 and 4.
You'd really have to map that out beforehand.

As well, many of these combinations for poles 1 and 2 may require using poles 3 and 4 to create the jumps. In that case, you'd run the commons to the contact board so each switch had only 1 pole, and you could turn that pole On or Off.
This has its own merits, as you flip one switch to get Bridge or P-Rail alone, rather than having to flick the 5-way 2 or 3 positions.
But if the pickup is not in the mode you wanted, then you're flipping a switch AND moving the 5-way 2 or 3 positions. While playing. In time. Guitar nerds would worship you, though.

This is Bill's wife, you evil bastard. Late last night, after reading your reply, he got out of bed like a deranged madman and jumped out the window. Thank god, he survived, and today he's in the hospital laid up in a full body cast (at least now he won't be able to play guitar for many months.) If you ever communicate with him again on this devil-spawned forum, I will have you charged with aggravated assault.

PS, Bill has promised to attend regular meetings at GMA (Guitar Modders Anonymous) until he is cured of his obsession with "tone", whatever the hell that is. I suggest you do the same!

PPS, This is Bill. One of my doctors was in a band in med school and has promised to allow me access to his iPad so I can research how the hell to wire some of these options you outlined above - once I regain use of my hands.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Wiring P Rail into 5 Way Switch w or w/out Triple Shot?

Actually with the way the TS switches are connected to each other, the only ones that would work are 1 and 2, now that I think about it more.

 

[billlorentzen]

Re: Wiring P Rail into 5 Way Switch w or w/out Triple Shot?

Actually with the way the TS switches are connected to each other, the only ones that would work are 1 and 2, now that I think about it more.

Thanks for your very illuminating rundown. I think what I'm going to do initially is neck H, P, S, HH, H. The single coil of the bridge hum is useless and I don't use quack sound enough to care about losing it. After an evaluation period, I may try for more options. Thanks!