Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

[Phil Ressler]

Just floating this, FYI.

I got an email yesterday from Peter Stroud (Sheryl Crow, Sarah Mclachlan, Don Henley; co-founder 65 Amps), wherein he wrote his assessment of our Zephyr Silver pickups. Peter had a very skinny window to get his Zephyrs before heading out for a tour, so his pickups aren't yet cryogenically treated. We'll add that later. Here's the relevant text from his email to me, which he permitted me to use publicly:

"...I played the guitar extensively the other day and revisited it this morning while working in my home studio. Gotta say I'm pretty darned impressed. The pickups really brought the LP to life with a unique tone that doesn't sound like just another PAF or what you'd expect out of a humbucker. They sound exceptional through the <65 Amps> Li’l Elvis. Beautiful pick attack and definition, bite that is smooth not abrasive, the notes sing on lead lines and you clearly hear every note in the chord.

“Whatever part the silver wire plays in the tone, you could tell me, but as a whole it's a very inspiring tone and feel. In other words these will stay in this Les Paul....replacing Seymour's Antiquities that have lived in this guitar for years.

“I’ll be installing the Telecaster pickups this weekend into gear I'll take out on tour next week.

“Nice one.”

Perhaps this helps.

Phil

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

I'm curious to know exactly which LP and Tele Zephyr-ized sets he beta tested.

And wondering when Frank is sending me a Zephyr Brobucker/PGn? hehe

 

[Phil Ressler]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Anything deviating from the standard Zephyr Silver configurations would be a custom shop order. Peter's pickups are the standard Zephyr Silver humbuckers set, which is a moderate output winding, and a Zephyr Silver Tele bridge & neck set.

Phil

 

[Despair]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Any info on what magnets, or what kind of resistance/wire gauge? Anything at all that can help us guess what to compare them to?

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Read the other thread - the elements of the pickup give them a tone not comparable to the standard copper wire coils. That means you simply can't say "it's a 59 with more highs" or some such.

 

[Despair]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Actually, once people have a handle on what it sounds like, they very likely will say something similar to that. But not necessarily with the '59 as the starting point. I think given the low resistance of the wire, it's likely to be more compared to Parallel Axis pickups, or the Screamin' Demon, than the '59, though. ;]

But so far, we're getting no descriptions, not even a rough idea of what sort of ballpark tone it gets.

There are plenty of pickups that get unique tones that aren't necessarily desirable. I doubt that's what SD has done with the Zephyr, but it'd be interesting to have some idea of what pickup they started improving on.

The silver will undoubtably change the behavior of the standard gauges, I wouldn't be surprised if they wound up with something like 42.5AWG to get the resonant peak where they wanted. Or if they use a thinner/less effective insulator, to raise coil capacitance and control mids/highs that way.

But until someone demos it in public in a setting where you can hear the nuances, there's a frustrating dearth of information on what they're doing with it.

Even just knowing the magnet gives some idea about what sort of sound they're going for, though obviously magnet/wire interactions are going to change with different wire composition.

 

[Phil Ressler]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Magnet is Alnico 5. We didn't start with an existing model pickup. It's not a "'59 with silver, nor a JB or Jazz with silver." In feature rank order of sonic impact I personally order from most to least:

-Silver wire
-Bi-metallic pole pieces in humbuckers (stainless steel with pure nickel core)
-Cryogenic treatment
-Glass fiber filled nylon bobbin in humbuckers

The combination yields the twin advantages of more tone density yet with more definition. They don't sound "hi-fi," they just sound more vivid, jumpy, lush and expressive. The bi-metallic pole pieces by themselves change the impact and chime of a reference copper test pickup, and silver only magnifies the effect. Net result -- the sound of Zephyr is produced by the combined material choices we made. Anyone can order a '59 with silver wire, for instance, from the Custom Shop, since we are making Zephyr features available ala carte there.

You can get hotter copper pickups from our line, but these moderate-output Zephyrs suit a wide range of playing styles and bring a tonal flavor already described elsewhere that really isn't quite the same as copper. It's the first inflection of a newer voice; a start, not a finish. Perhaps the combination of our own descriptive language and Peter's reaction can help you zero in on an aural idea of Zephyr attributes until more people go public with their experiences with them.

Phil

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

It's nice to hear a real testimony from a real, working player. It's still, however, highly subjective and abstract to use verbiage to impart a physical sense/mental reaction to something.

I don't doubt the advantages. Heck, I'm an advocate of a silver-backed dollar and think it's an amazing metal with a plethora of uses, including that of a powerful disinfectant. But let's face it, most of us here will never buy $500 a piece pickups. If I did that, even if I was making 100% of my income playing music, my wife would send me packing.

What is most disasserting, is the prospect of silver's price going up manifold over the next year or two and judging by Goldman Sach's extremely dishonest overproduction of silver stocks, it's possible it could reach $300/oz. by some economist/investor opinions. If that happened, or something along those lines, the price of these pickups would have to be even more out-of-reach for all but the most well-paid side men and rock stars. Phil, as a CEO of a successful (I'm assuming) company, you MUST be aware of the possible fluctuations of precious metals and how they have risen dramatically in the last several years, coupled with the instability of the dollar, fueled by the Fed's out-of-control behavior.

That said, I'd love to give these pickups an honest test. I just don't have an amp worthy, nor a guitar that I could honestly say would give them justice. But when I can afford my Suhr Custom and SLO-100, I'll be sure to place an order.

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Peter Stroud is an awesome guitar player and amp maker, so his opinion is well valued in the guitar player world.

Other than that, I just don't see these taking off to well. Sure, it's a great idea and it they probably sound really good. I just don't see too many people hearing them and feeling the need to drop $1200 on a set of pickups. OTOH, I guess if you can afford $5000 and $10000 custom guitars, $1200 for a set of pickups really isn't an issue.

I do like the fact you can order any of the options for the Zephyrs on any custom shop pickup. The new pole pieces have my attention.

It's cool that Duncan has stepped into the high $ arena with some offerings, but that was a huge step, and like mentioned before, the stability on the price of silver is going to impact the price of these pickups and not in a good way.

Any way I look at it, or hopefully hear it, I just don't see any set of pickups being worth $900 more than a set of custom shop pickups that you can already get from Seymour Duncan.

If you really want to sell these pickups, all it's going to take is an endorsement from EVH. You'll then see people hawking their cars and working street corners to get them.

 

[grapeskeletons]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Anyone can order a '59 with silver wire, for instance, from the Custom Shop, since we are making Zephyr features available ala carte there.

See, now that sounds cool. What would the price be, regular Custom Shop price or Zephyr price? Or somewhere in between?

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

If you really want to sell these pickups, all it's going to take is an endorsement from EVH. You'll then see people hawking their cars and working street corners to get them.

He gobbled up the titanium Floyd rose at the '10 NAMM right off the bat, so I'm gonna bet he'll buy some of these fo sho! He has a storied history using Seymour-ized pickups (although never endorsed them), including his Frankenstein replica. But a guy like that with all the money and an obsessive "tone chaser" will most likely be using them at some point. More power to him! (no pun intended)

I can't buy a Mercedes Benz either, but I'm not going to knock them for quality just because I can't afford one.

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

I'm not knocking the quality by any means. I'm sure if Seymour is willing to put his name on it, then it's a top quality product. I just see a lot of people that won't be able to justify spending that much on set of pickups when there are already numerous, sometimes too many, options that are more than capable of doing what needs to be done and being very good at it.

I see them as nothing more than a novelty. I'm sure they're awesome at what they do. I'm not just not sure that, even if I had that kind of money to spend, that I would.

 

[Despair]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

The odds are that the price on the new features comes down eventually. I don't know why people keep wailing about the shockingly high price. It's not shocking for a non-production pickup that's attempting to recoup some of the R&D costs.

If they go into mass production and cost that, and stay there... Yeah, it's going a tiny niche, until materials availability or manufacturing costs change radically. But we're a long ways from seeing that.

I don't think Seymour Duncan would be bothering with it, if they expected it to be an expensive niche forever. Phil Ressler's already mentioned that the Zephyr line is going to be used for introducing new technologies without compromise on price. I'd bet on more affordable variants later, and the new technologies filtering their way into at least some mass produced models eventually.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

If I had the income that would allow it I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

 

[MattPete]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

...more tone density...

What is tone density? How can tone be dense? Please explain.

 

[IanBallard]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

The odds are that the price on the new features comes down eventually.

That is IF and only IF the price of silver stabilizes and never goes up. And I am saying that there no possible way it won't, so long as our currency continues to be debased as it is by the Fed and the irresponsible behavior of the investment banks who hold the largest quantities of these metals. Trillions of dollars pumped out to foreign banks... Goldman Sachs printing vastly too many silver stocks. Basic math... basic economics... price of the commodity will rise when the correction occurs and it will occur.

Seymour Duncan should not be too preoccupied with this because they are trying to produce quality, cutting-edge products. It is not Seymour or Phil's fault Goldman Sachs are greedy, evil tyrants and that Ben Bernanke is treating the dollar like a cheap whore. I'm not saying the Zephyr pickups are a bad idea. I am saying there are forces at work in the macrosphere of our economic system that might seriously hurt this wonderful company and us, the consumer.

I'm also suggesting being VERY careful with how this product is invested in because IF a major correction causes a major upward trend in silver prices, there is no way anything can be done to keep the price of this potentially awesome product from rising even more out-of-reach.

I hope I am wrong and these very aware economists and investment experts are wrong. Seriously. I also still say, I'd gobble up these pickups in heartbeat if I could.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

What is tone density? How can tone be dense? Please explain.

I'm sure Phil will have a better way of putting it, but to me it's very similar to HDTV vs even the finest of tube televisions.

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

All squibbling of the details aside, I want to hear an untouched, uncompressed wav file of these pickups. They'll either walk the walk or become gear page fodder for idiots.

 

[Despair]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

I'm sure Phil will have a better way of putting it, but to me it's very similar to HDTV vs even the finest of tube televisions.

You realize there are HD CRTs, right?

I am very happy CRT displays are largely gone. I am vulnerable to flicker-triggered migraines, and even high end high refresh rate CRTs were a problem for both eyestrain and flicker for me. Now if they'd just do something about the transformers in flat panels so there's less noise for even humbuckers to pick up...

IanBallard, silver isn't the only feature there. And I doubt it's currently the most expensive of the features. Manufacturing costs tend to get quite high on quality transformer metals. Silver speculation is unlikely to drive it up indefinitely, eventually things crash and the market sorts itself out [often an agonizing process, I'm not making light of that]. Just because that one feature might become too expensive, doesn't mean everything else is doomed.

Even if silver becomes too expensive, there's also other interesting options, like less efficient conductors, or higher quality copper that's more conductive. Or alloys. All of which may be interesting for hybrid humbuckers. Mixing silver & copper coils would cut in half the cost of silver used in a pickup...

I'd be surprised if Seymour Duncan isn't doing more R&D on tone properties of different materials for other parts of pickups. Materials have come a long way since pickups were first designed, but systematic research on their application to guitar has lagged.

There's a lot of possible designs that have been largely ignored. Haven't seen much done with polepieces around the strings, besides the original bass pickup and the Parallel Axis series. A simpler to assemble version of the PA pickup might only have 7 bars. And you could play with thickness, going from around the size of current studs [and then there's shape. Square, oval, circular...] down to something like an interrupted blade.

There's a lot of abandoned technology as well. Why are eddy-free open-faced covers only used on FilterTrons? [Well, and misused on the gretsch singles... Why hasn't anyone designed a proper cover for singles based on the FilterTron?]

Someone mentioned phantom power [Roland's GK connector is another nice example]. XLR and differential signals are another thing largely overlooked, especially for active instruments.

Bill Lawrence has posted some interesting arguments about how guitar amps are all wrong for signal reproduction (talking specifically about impedenance). Unfortunately that's become tied to tone generation...

Silver wire would be a huge improvement for sustainer devices and for magnetic hexaphonic pickups, as well. Higher efficiency means either a stronger effect or less battery drain for the sustainer, and it means the volume problem on hexaphonic pickups would improve a bit.

And I'm tired and have forgotten how I wanted to tie this all together, oh well, g'night.

 

[Miggyman]

Re: Zephyr Silver - a working guitarist's view

Here is a copy of a reply I summitted else where:

First let me state that I am not a pickup maker. I am a musician/guitarist/sound engineer of over 35 years experience.

I have to say that I am have been intrigued by the Zephyr pickups and the whole discussion on the topic. Not because of the all the technology behind it, though I respect and applaud that, but I want to hear and feel the uniqueness of expression and results I could obtain through them. What will my instrument sound and feel like is the initial question? The next one is how can I better express myself? the final one i think is what can i create?

It's about the creation process and end product for me. What can be conveyed to me and my audience. The word "ARTIST" has a lot of weight to it of my perception of of how I view the area of music. It is a creation process and an exchange between the creator and listener. Pickup are tools like brushes are to paint. The brush itself may allow the paint to be drawn, held and delivered in a manner that will produce consistent results but it's ultimately up to the Artist to apply (and appreciate) those qualities. Paint is like an unplayed instrument. until it's applied it is not given life. Of course some pickups are perceived better than others because they consistently allow for the Artist to express themselves in a matter that is perceived by them, and the listener, as enjoyable and even extraordinary in combination with the instrument. An expression of the the instrument, when truly great, it's just not sonic but also an exchange of mind, body, and spirit. What missing in my scenario? The canvas of course!!! The instrument's materials, qualities, strings, preamp, amps, speakers, cables, etc. all have interaction with each other including the pickup. The pickup is definitely key to the foundation of the initial signal sent in the chain. I wish I could test more of them but it's an expense I and most musicians can't handle.

However, that said, I don't understand the big debate with the price (though I lament it because I can't afford it at this time..:-(). I would love to own some very expensive instruments for their beauty, sound qualities, and playability, and imagine the possibilities of the experience. There may be disappointment, but I understand the expense. I have improved the level of "perceived " quality and results of few guitars just by changing the pickups and ultimately enjoyed them more. I always seem to come back to Duncans BTW. As an example (very broad one at that), I think it is totally possible to surpass the current sonic capabilities demonstrated by an instrument costing say $3000 by one costing $1000 by changing the pickups and electronics package and still invest far less than the $3000 instrument price. Those are arbitrary figures, but adding 1200 pickups to a guitar you are able to play to the best of your capabilities because you love the feel of it may exponentially increase it's expressive and sonic capabilities beyond investing in an instrument that cost much more than with the new pickups added.

I thank all designers, engineers and manufacturers for pushing the limits of technology. But I especially thank those who allow the "artist" in them to explore the possibilities of creating something different for the sake of extracting beauty from an instrument for the musician's expression of the heart, soul and spirit. Isn't it the end goal?