Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

[Low_fidelity2100]

Ok, so I recently got an old Fender Super 112 (60watts 112 90's tube amp) to use at practices. Because I got tired of lugging my Minty 80's Fender Concert (thing weighs a ton cause I've got an EVM12L in it now). All seemed well I guess. The Cab of the Super cracked while being shipped, but nothing too major, and being as its now my beater for practice and shady venues, I don't really care.
But tonight I decided to run the Concert and Super in stereo, partially cause I just wanted to, but also to try and dial in the tone on the Super to as close as I can to the concert....
Then I realized something weird....The Concert was set at 3 on the volume, the Super was at 5...and the Concert was noticeably louder. Turned the Concert up to 5, and to match the volume, I had to turn the Super full up.

So...I'm wondering, is this normal for those 90's Supers? Are they just inherently less loud than they should be? or is something wrong with the Super? I tried putting a more efficient speaker in it (had a G12M70, I replaced it with an Emi V12), and it didn't seem to make much difference to the volume. I replaced the Output tubes, etc....No difference...Is this just a not so loud amp? or what? I'm confused, haha.

Also, the Reverb Pot doesn't work, and the Presence control has dead spots, so if anyone wants to gimme some advice on fixing that stuff, feel free. haha.

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Different amps have different characteristics man...don't stress it.

[Benjy_26]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

The EVM 12L is a very efficient speaker.

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Different amps have different characteristics man...don't stress it.

Yeah, I know...Just seemed weird there was such a huge volume difference.

The EVM 12L is a very efficient speaker.

Yeah that is very true...As soon as I put the EVM12L in the concert it felt twice as loud as before, so that is probably alot of the difference.

[Rich_S]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Remember, a seemingly small difference in speaker efficiency - 3 dB - is the equivalent of doubling the amp's wattage. It's entirely possible that there is a 3 dB difference between the EV and whatever probably-crappy speaker is in the Super 112.

Also, you're comparing apples to oranges. Chances are those amps behave differently wrt volume control settings. They're just numbers stamped on a bit of plastic; amp knobs are not calibrated lab test equipment.

[uOpt]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

What's the difference with both at full open? The numbers on the dials mean nothing.

And as mentioned, the EV12L is IIRC at least 6 db more efficient than typical vintage style guitar speakers. That's 20 times the output at same input.

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Remember, a seemingly small difference in speaker efficiency - 3 dB - is the equivalent of doubling the amp's wattage. It's entirely possible that there is a 3 dB difference between the EV and whatever probably-crappy speaker is in the Super 112.

Also, you're comparing apples to oranges. Chances are those amp behave differently wrt volume control settings. They're just numbers stamped on a bit of plastic; amp knobs are not calibrated lab test equipment.

Oh, I know that small differences do make a very big difference. The speaker in the Super 112 right now is an Emi Legend V12 (101db Sens.) I put in there after it arrived. An yeah I know that the control numbers are pretty arbitrary...But it still seems rather odd that theres that big of a difference.

What's the difference with both at full open? The numbers on the dials mean nothing.

And as mentioned, the EV12L is IIRC at least 6 db more efficient than typical vintage style guitar speakers. That's 20 times the output at same input.

With Both full up, you can't even hear the Super112. The Super 112 cranked on the clean channel, is about as loud as the Concert is at 5 (and the concert still gets much louder from there). Now, both amps even full up, are actually very very clean, which is exactly what I need so its kool. Just sorta sucks that theres the weird vol. difference.

[Benjy_26]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Throw a 12L in the other one. That'll go a LONG way towards getting them to be even.

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Throw a 12L in the other one. That'll go a LONG way towards getting them to be even.

Yeah...See part of the reason for getting a different amp for practice is the weight added by the 12L, haha....The Concert weighs a Ton now, sounds Amazing and Huge, but weighs so much its ridiculous. haha...But, I'm sure that tossing a 12L in the Super is the only way to make it usable. Haha....Though it does seem sorta goofy to put a $200 speaker in an amp thats not even worth that much, haha.

[uOpt]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Why don't you test with the speakers you have? Speaker came from one amp to the other and see what that does.

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Why don't you test with the speakers you have? Speaker came from one amp to the other and see what that does.

Tried that earlier today. Theres still a very noticeable difference in volume. Much quieter than the Concert.





Also, an update....Took the Super 112 to band Practice today...Full up, it wasn't even loud enough to be heard over the drums, I actually had to mic it through the pa, at Band Practice?! Really really weird to me...I don't think this is just some normal volume difference between two amps, I'm sorta thinking theres something wrong with the amp itself....So what would cause an amp to drastically lose volume, but sound completely fine otherwise?

I replaced the output tubes with a known good pair, no difference. Replaced the Phase inverter Tube with a known good one, no difference. Tried running it through the 12L in the concert, Small difference in volume, but not enough to say its all the speaker. Tried replacing the pretubes, and tested the ones out of the super in another amp, no difference......I'll admit that I don't know much about the inner workings of amps compared to alot of guys here, so I'm hoping one of you guys can help me sort this out. The super sounds pretty good, good enough for band practice anyways...but the volume issue makes it sorta unusable....What would cause an amp to lose volume like this?

[Chickenwings]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Wattage is overrated as a measurement of amps percieved volumes. Also speaker efficincy does not tell you the whole story either - there is also spl at different frequencies to consider. Some amps accentuate certain frequencies that our ears are just more sensetive to.
There is a also the possibility that the volume pots on the two amps are different tapers.

Also this little anecdote from the real world:
My friend has a 50w master volume marshall that is way louder than my 100w master volume marshall - even when run thru the same cabs.

Dont worry....just use your ears to get it all set up.

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Two 60watt 112 amps...But one is much louder?

Wattage is overrated as a measurement of amps percieved volumes. Also speaker efficincy does not tell you the whole story either - there is also spl at different frequencies to consider. Some amps accentuate certain frequencies that our ears are just more sensetive to.
There is a also the possibility that the volume pots on the two amps are different tapers.

Also this little anecdote from the real world:
My friend has a 50w master volume marshall that is way louder than my 100w master volume marshall - even when run thru the same cabs.

Dont worry....just use your ears to get it all set up.

Yeah I am aware that wattage is a pretty bad way to judge volume....But, any 6L6 12" loaded amp, cranked....Should be Pretty f*ckin loud, haha....So when I can hear myself singing over the amp, when its cranked....That to me, says theres got to be some sort of issue going on, not just a speaker difference, or volume pot tapers. Plus I'm pretty sure vol. pot taper makes no difference when the Volume is turned full up. haha.