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My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

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  • My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

    For the last couple months, I've been rolling 12AX7's in my amps trying to find what best compliments their tone. I've tried to get ahold of anything I can, but since I'm in Mexico, it's been a bit more difficult than I wish it was. Either way, I read as many reviews as I could to make the most informed purchases possible. Lots of reviews have been conflicting, so I figured I'd make my own in hope it helps somebody.

    So anyway, here are my thoughts on the tubes that I got to try:

    JJ ECC83S. I hear somewhat average-ish highs leaning a bit towards being restrained in this tube, but I also hear a scooped upper-midrange, hence it's reputation for being dark. I also hear a somewhat restrained low-end that does not reach too low, which contributes to a tight feel. They've also got a warm, juicy, round core mid and low-mid emphasis. These tubes are squishy, compressed, and gainy.

    I feel these tubes do best in gain stages in amps that are bright and boomy or dry-sounding.

    JJ ECC803S. I feel these tubes have a very even EQ response with some emphasis on brigt, sparkling, open highs, which contrasts greatly with the more popular ECC83's. The low-end is more open and deeper, and there isn't quite as much emphasis on squishy low mids like it's short-plate counterpart. They've also got a long plate, so they can be prone to microphonics. The gain is average, I feel, and they're also very open-sounding, so they don't feel overly compressed.

    I feel these would be great for slots dedicated to clean channels and/or phase inverter positions in dark-sounding amps.

    Shuguang 12AX7B. Thish is the famous Chinese 9th Gen that so many companies rebrand (Ruby 12AX7AC5, Penta 12AX7B, etc.). I feel the emphasis on these is on the high-mids with the rest of the spectrum being relatively balanced. They've got strong gain, so they feel gritty, angry, and grindy. The low-end is somewhat deep, but still plenty tight.

    These are overall my favorite AX7's. I feel they do well in pretty much all positions, but I tend to use them mostly in tone stack drivers, where they feel somewhat balanced and neutral with a hint of grit. I also really like them in gain stages, though, as their grindy character can give the edge that JJ ECC83's lack.

    Shuguang 7025. Yet another commonly rebranded Chinese tube (Ruby 12AX7AC7, Gold Lion ECC83 Standard Pin, etc.). I feel these have got an emphasis on midrange without the scoop in the high-mids that JJ's have. They're also not as compressed, but have got somewhat strong gain to them. The lows are tight and not overly boomy, and the highs, while not emphatic, are not dark either.

    I feel these are another good option on gain stages, as they distort tightly and cleanly. Not my favorite, but not bad either.

    Sovtek 12AX7WC. I hear restrained top-end and high-mids in these. They've also got an emphasis on low-mids and a slightly flabby bottom-end. They're also slightly compressed-feeling, but they haven't got a particularly strong output.

    Not a fan of these. Their gain isn't as strong as others, and they're dark and kinda dull.

    Sovtek 12AX7LPS. Neutral high-end with slightly scooped upper mids ala JJ. These are smooth-sounding as well. These, however, have a very deep and round emphasis on bottom-end, and they are not compressed or squishy-feeling at all, so their feel is very open. They've got strong gain too.

    These are very popular phase inverters, and I get why. They're very big and open-feeling and sounding, and they help smooth out a preamp that has been filled with Chinese glass and/or a poweramp with bright airy power tubes. Lots of people dig them early in the signal chain, but I can't say I'm one of them. To me, they're kinda boring with a flabby low-end within the first positions. Also, their long plate structure can be prone to microphony.

    Electro Harmonix 12AX7EH. Extremely bright with a strong emphasis on highs and high mids. Scooped lower midrange gives them some clarity, but the bottom-end is deep and uncompressed. These have got solid gain, but they are not squishy-feeling. These can't handle cathode follower positions, I've read.

    Another tube I don't dig. Way too bright for my taste or my amps, and the bottom-end I don't feel is particularly tight either. I guess they could have some use in clean channels or lower-gain edge of breakup sounds, but for me... nope.

    Tung Sol 12AX7. Another member of a family of Russian tubes that also includes the EH. These have got a bright and open high-end as well, but the mids are more even. These have got slightly scooped lower mids too, but not as much as the EH. The high-mids are also not as grating as its EH cousin. These have got a very strong gain as well, but they don't feel overly compressed.

    These seem very popular within the first positions, and I can see why. They're open-feeling and clear-sounding. I dig them, overall, but they're not my favorite. I feel they can be a bit too open-sounding for many fierce, scoopy, modern high-gainers, but that's JMO. In the right amp, they shine, though.

    Mullard CV4004/12AX7. Another member of the EH family. These are way more balanced frequency-wise, though. They're still clear and open-sounding, but I feel these take yet another step in the same direction as the TS did compared to the EH. These are smooth, but not dull like the Sovtek WC's. I feel these are somewhat of a Tung Sol meets a Shuguang 7025.

    These look very similar to the EH's, but, while I don't like EH's at all, I love these. These are particularly good within the first stages to smooth out and fatten up a gritty high-gainer.

    I still really want to try the Svetlana 12AX7 and the Mullard 12AX7/ECC83.

    So those are my thoughts on what I've tried. The amps I've tried them in have all been modern high-gainers, so take this FWIW. I rarely ever play clean, and it's even a bit more unusual for me to play crunchy Classic Rock-type of tones. Tubes react slightly different to different amps, but I feel they get to keep some traits when compared to each other in the same circuit. I hope it helps anyone who's curious about trying any of these tubes.

    Last edited by Rex_Rocker; 01-14-2019, 12:37 PM.

  • #2
    Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

    Thank for this review , you should try the russian Mullard 12ax7 reissue , I got some and they have a very high gain and a lots of tone in a high gain stage .
    The Genalex 12ax7 is also very good , even sounding in V1 position .

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    • #3
      Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

      Sound clips?
      Who took my guitar?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

        Originally posted by IMENATOR View Post
        Sound clips?
        I may have a couple floating around, but they're usually just Tube A vs. Tube B in a single position. I feel that in order to really highlight the differences, it would have to be all positions, or at least several key positions, and that would be an expensive and very time-consuming shootout to make. Sorry.

        The differences are somewhat subtle in the room, and the mic and multi-tracked guitars don't seem to help with the subtlety, though. I'd say preamp tube swaps are more about fine-tuning an amp that you like vs. fixing an amp you don't like, but I'm sure many disagree.
        Last edited by Rex_Rocker; 01-14-2019, 01:40 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

          A good write up, and I agree with the OP for the most part. Added a few thoughts on tubes I'm familiar with...

          JJ ECC83S I used to not like this tube, then I bought a Jet City JCA22H. It sounded like a metal can full of bees with the stock Shuguangs, but swapping the gain stages to JJs really sorted it out. In my Marshall Jubilees the dirty sounds were pretty good, but the cleans were dull and kinda flat. longcat also likes them in her SVT-3Pro since tube rolling doesn't seem to have much effect while these are readily available, dependable, and cheap.

          Shuguang 12AX7B These are overall my least favorite 12AX7, and I only use them as effect loop drivers and similar positions that don't affect the overall tone. When used as a gain stage, I find them harsh, gritty, and piercingly bright.

          Sovtek 12AX7WA/WB/WC These tubes are boring. They don't sound particularly good or bad, but they do make a decent-sounding, durable cathode follower.

          Sovtek 12AX7LPS My favorite phase inverter. I wouldn't use them in everything as the low end might not be tight enough, but they're great in the right amp. I also wouldn't use one for a gain stage due to the potential for microphonics.

          Electro Harmonix 12AX7EH These used to be my favorite gain stage, but I generally prefer Tung-Sols now. New Sensor changed the spec for these in 2008 and the new style ones die quickly when used as a cathode follower. I wish someone had told me before I killed a decent number of them. I wouldn't say they sound bad, but they're brighter than they used to be and not as gainy.

          Tung Sol 12AX7 These sound like pre-2008 EHs, and I agree with Rex's general assessment. These days it's my preferred V1 tube as long as it isn't too bright for the amp.

          Originally posted by Rex_Rocker View Post
          The differences are somewhat subtle in the room, and the mic and multi-tracked guitars don't seem to help with the subtlety, though. I'd say preamp tube swaps are more about fine-tuning an amp that you like vs. fixing an amp you don't like, but I'm sure many disagree.
          Agree with this 100%. Part of it is personal preference, another part are the amps in question, and a third part are the specific tones you're chasing.
          Originally posted by crusty philtrum
          And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

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          • #6
            Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

            Great review!

            I concur with your experience with JJ's, Tung Sol and Sovteks.

            Sovtek 12ax7wc and JJ ECC83S certainly have similarities in tone. I think Sovteks get pointlessly a bit bad rep just because they're go to stock tube for so many manufacturers, The wide and softer lows work in fine in right amp and settings, JJ's being step to tighter direction.

            Tung Sol was too bright and and harsh sounding for my taste.

            JJ 5751 I moved to and posted in other thread about was about between Tung Sol and JJ ECC83S tonewise; even more open sounding than Tung Sol, but less bright and more even, more low mid response, and lower gain of course.
            Last edited by Jacew; 01-14-2019, 10:45 PM.
            "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
            Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

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            • #7
              Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

              Excellent OP reviews of tubes he is familiar with. I cannot comment as I have not got into tube rolling in a big way. I re-tubed my Dark Terror entirely; using the Rex's favorite Shuguang 12ax7b in the preamp triplet. I trusted the vendor's assessment of a decent sounding reliable tube. My opinion is the these 3 new tubes are smoother sounding than the JJ 12ax7 triplet that came with the amp.

              My question though: Do tube manufacturers consciously “design” a preamp tube for a certain
              type of sound or tone? Do they accommodate amplifier manufacturers when asked by them to
              produce a certain gain structure in a tube for a particular amp?


              Studioplayer

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                Originally posted by Studioplayer View Post
                Excellent OP reviews of tubes he is familiar with. I cannot comment as I have not got into tube rolling in a big way. I re-tubed my Dark Terror entirely; using the Rex's favorite Shuguang 12ax7b in the preamp triplet. I trusted the vendor's assessment of a decent sounding reliable tube. My opinion is the these 3 new tubes are smoother sounding than the JJ 12ax7 triplet that came with the amp.

                My question though: Do tube manufacturers consciously “design” a preamp tube for a certain
                type of sound or tone? Do they accommodate amplifier manufacturers when asked by them to
                produce a certain gain structure in a tube for a particular amp?


                Studioplayer
                No. There is only handful of actual manufacturers of audio tubes in world: New Sensor in russia (Sovtek/EHX/Tung Sol/Mullard/Genalex), JJ in Slovakia and Shuguang in China are only three I know of.

                They build them to specs. Different vendors then test those tubes and brand them. Along with tube type and manufacturer, the elimination process of tubes with unwanted characteristics differentiate the brands.

                Amp builders build the amps around certain tubes, preferably ones with most consistency. Or just cheap price...
                Last edited by Jacew; 01-15-2019, 07:04 AM.
                "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
                Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                  Thanks for reading, dudes. And yeah, I agree... Sovtek WC's aren't bad. They seem reliable, and they might work in the right amp. FWIW, I may like or dislike some tubes more than others, but I'm sure there is a scenario where every type of tube might work. I might not like EH's for the tone I'm going for with my amps (though, I must admit I like their 12AU7 in my little 1W amps), but it might work wonders in something like a bass amp where you'd want some grind up top with a full low-end and scooped low mids.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                    Originally posted by dystrust View Post
                    JJ ECC83S I used to not like this tube, then I bought a Jet City JCA22H. It sounded like a metal can full of bees with the stock Shuguangs, but swapping the gain stages to JJs really sorted it out.
                    Found this quite interesting as it is exactly the same thing I saw in my JCA22H Custom head!!
                    I normally find JJ's to be dull and lifeless but they were just magic in the Jet City. Not only did they fatten it up but they also in V1 and 2 dropped the noise floor noticeably at higher gain levels.
                    Last edited by Ascension; 01-20-2019, 12:29 AM.
                    Guitars
                    Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
                    Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

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                    • #11
                      Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                      The CP Shuguang's are'nt very consistent, some are excessively bright/thin & a bit harsh and some sound really smooth, sweet & round. I only buy "Beijing Shuguang" 12AX7's (factory closed, the CP one's are made at the new facility in Changsha) tubes now instead as they are consistently smooth, sweet & round & not quite as bright (they have star's on them).



                      I've got either these or JJ ECC83S's in most of my amps (with Sovtek LPS's as phase inverters). Sovtek WC's in my Brutus Live head 'cause they came stock and sound great.

                      Don't care for the Tung Sol's, JJ 803S's & EH's in any of my amp's that I've tried them in. I'd really like to try the new Svetlana's...

                      Have'nt tried the Mullard's either (I'm confused.. are there one or two types/models of these?)
                      "Less is less, more is more...how can less be more?" ~Yngwie J Malmsteen

                      I did it my way ~ Frank Sinatra

                      Originally posted by Rodney Gene
                      If you let your tone speak for itself you'll find alot less people join the conversation.


                      Youtube

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                        Wow my ADD must be getting worse over the years.... seems like I just blinked and zoned out from the tube theme for just a moment, and yet.... suddenly.... Chinese tubes are cool now????

                        When did that happen?????


                        PS im not arguing or ridiculing, I genuinely haven't got a clue how and when that unexpected suddenly occurred
                        "New stuff always sucks" -Me

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                          Originally posted by Adieu View Post
                          Wow my ADD must be getting worse over the years.... seems like I just blinked and zoned out from the tube theme for just a moment, and yet.... suddenly.... Chinese tubes are cool now????

                          When did that happen?????

                          PS im not arguing or ridiculing, I genuinely haven't got a clue how and when that unexpected suddenly occurred
                          I think it was the 80's when tube production was dying out, and ampmakers like Mesa and Marshall were forced to use what was available at the time.

                          Thing is many ampmakers design their amps around what tubes they are going to be shipped with. I've read Bogner and Diezel say their amps sound best using the Shuguang C9's.

                          Originally posted by Phantasmagoria View Post
                          Have'nt tried the Mullard's either (I'm confused.. are there one or two types/models of these?)
                          There are two. The long plate 12AX7/ECC83 which look like the Sovtek LPS which I have not tried, and the short plate CV4004/12AX7 which I love and is in the same family as the current Electro Harmonix, Tung Sol and Svetlana. Those last ones sound kinda like a fatter, smoother Tung Sol.
                          Last edited by Rex_Rocker; 01-20-2019, 01:25 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                            Originally posted by Adieu View Post
                            Wow my ADD must be getting worse over the years.... seems like I just blinked and zoned out from the tube theme for just a moment, and yet.... suddenly.... Chinese tubes are cool now????

                            When did that happen?????


                            PS im not arguing or ridiculing, I genuinely haven't got a clue how and when that unexpected suddenly occurred
                            Some of them are..those 'Beijing Shuguang' 12Ax7's for instance (and the "Silver Dragons" from the 80's). I also love the EL34's (my faves are the Shuggy ones..Winged C's be damned lol..)

                            ..& the Shuguang KT66's are my fave CP KT66 as well..

                            @ Rex Rocker : Thanks for clarifying. I kept reading reviews where people were saying those short plate Mullard's sounded a bit compressed/flat & lacked headroom? That's what kept me from checking them out....might have to give them a shot..
                            "Less is less, more is more...how can less be more?" ~Yngwie J Malmsteen

                            I did it my way ~ Frank Sinatra

                            Originally posted by Rodney Gene
                            If you let your tone speak for itself you'll find alot less people join the conversation.


                            Youtube

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: My thoughts on a few CP 12AX7's for high-gain amps

                              Originally posted by Phantasmagoria View Post
                              The CP Shuguang's are'nt very consistent, some are excessively bright/thin & a bit harsh and some sound really smooth, sweet & round. I only buy "Beijing Shuguang" 12AX7's (factory closed, the CP one's are made at the new facility in Changsha) tubes now instead as they are consistently smooth, sweet & round & not quite as bright (they have star's on them).



                              I've got either these or JJ ECC83S's in most of my amps (with Sovtek LPS's as phase inverters). Sovtek WC's in my Brutus Live head 'cause they came stock and sound great.

                              Don't care for the Tung Sol's, JJ 803S's & EH's in any of my amp's that I've tried them in. I'd really like to try the new Svetlana's...

                              Have'nt tried the Mullard's either (I'm confused.. are there one or two types/models of these?)
                              What’s your source on the Beijing Shuguangs?

                              Comment

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