James Brown, designer of 5150 amp, talks about working with EVH

[Phantasmagoria]

I did some testing today and have convinced myself the 5150 gain is not as high as I thought it was. So fingers crossed, I can let go of the only two preamp tubes.

Like I said haven't played the 5150 but the Bugera version, while it sounded cool, didn't bowl me over with how much gain it had coming out of those 6 or w/e preamp tubes. Similar levels to my AMT Stonehead (I think one of the lead channel's supposed to be based on a 5150 anyway) or my Randall..

[Phantasmagoria]

.

Still with James now at Fender EVH, he can leverage tech he developed at Amptweaker or concepts from the patented tech, and get plenty of gain outside of the tubes.

Yeah but here's the thing about the Iconic (from the product page):


PURE TUBE POWER

Two JJ ECC83S (12AX7) preamp tubes erupt with mega overdriven tone when pushed to the max, while four JJ 6L6 power tubes up the ante with plenty of saturated, high-gain attitude synonymous with Van Halen.


They're pretty much going the Laboga Beast route with their advertising... ie. the 2 x12AX7 "pure tube" power (implies no SS clipping) thing's going to get people's attention.. this is after all a 5150 we're talking about

[JamesPaul]

I was able to do my Triple XXX Ultra channel - 6505 (5150) Lead channel gain comparison. Before I went to the basement studio to drag out the Triple XXX, I gave it a go on my VIP 3. I will note that the Triple XXX tone on my original Vypyr 75 is why I bought my Triple XXX in the first place. I did some comparisons of those and the models were quite accurate. The VIP models are even better.

1. With all knobs at 12 o'clock on both, the gain was even
2. Setting pre-gain to max on both, the gain was still even
3. Setting post-gain to max on both, the 6505 wins but not by much

A surprising find was how little difference in tone there is between the two, with the tone stacks set to 12:00 o'clock. I did dial them around some and the tone does diverge.

I am convinced two preamp tubes are enough to get 5150 levels of gain. I should have spent more time with the 6505 models in the past, but I mistakenly thought I would never need that much gain.

[Phantasmagoria]

Two's all you need

Big EVH fan but never really ever been interested in 5150/6505's etc. I could have scored 6505's / 6505+'s/ 6505 jr.'s at stupid prices numerous times in the past but passed them by just 'cause they're too widely used by just about everyone & their grand-ma

Not a fault of the amp (though I do find them a bit 'generic' sounding..ie, .I can think of many amp's I'd much prefer just based off how they sound). Only checked the thread out because the 'two 12AX7 'all-tube preamp' that produces ****loads of gain" thing which reminded me of my Laboga

Though the Laboga's obviously a smaller amp.

Having said that I am curious about what it'll (Iconic) sound like..

[JamesPaul]

One thing I did not note earlier. Regardless of the gain level, the 6505 wanted to feedback and made a lot more noise when muting the strings, than the Triple XXX. Two 12AX7s for preamp gain may be better solution than using more 12AX7s.

[devastone]

A Long Tailed Pair PI uses two triodes, but a Cathodyne PI uses only one triode. The Cathodyne can suffer from a lot of issues the Long Tailed Pair corrects. Which is why most modern amps use a LTP, or some variant.

Still with James now at Fender EVH, he can leverage tech he developed at Amptweaker or concepts from the patented tech, and get plenty of gain outside of the tubes.

I did some testing today and have convinced myself the 5150 gain is not as high as I thought it was. So fingers crossed, I can let go of the only two preamp tubes.

I don't know of any amps that use a Cathodyne PI, honestly, I'm not familiar with it.

Yes, that was another part of my point, he can do some Amptweaker magic in there too.

I used to have a XXX 60W combo (the "real" 3 channel one, not the 2 channel 50W with fx, that was a mistake) it was a great amp!

[devastone]

The thing is that laboga stresses in it's advertising that The beast has an "all-tube" preamp with just two 12Ax7's...like it's a selling point.

Yes, it can be an all tube preamp, and you can get a lot of gain out of 2 12AX7s, the PI is technically in the power section so it still may be SS. That's what Blackstar does.

What matters is if it sounds good to you, irregardless of what is used to generate the tone.

[jeremy]

I don't know of any amps that use a Cathodyne PI, honestly, I'm not familiar with it.

some tweed fenders and even some small bf fenders like the princeton reverb, some orange amps and ampegs use the cathodyne style pi. the anode and cathode are used as the two outputs, not a bad design but care needs to be taken or it can sound harsh when overdriven

[Phantasmagoria]

Yes, it can be an all tube preamp, and you can get a lot of gain out of 2 12AX7s, the PI is technically in the power section so it still may be SS. That's what Blackstar does.

What matters is if it sounds good to you, irregardless of what is used to generate the tone.

Doesn't matter to me at all. I have SS amp's and modeler's that I love ..so definitely not a tube purist. Though I'm pretty sure there's no SS stuff going on with the power section either. Sounded awesome to me in demo's & I was just curious to experience for myself how much gain was on tap from the two 12AX7's

I also have "The Beast Classic 30" which I bought together with this one ...and it's a pretty different sounding amp despite having identical specs (according to the website the only difference is the OT. They're exactly the same otherwise.) with quite a bit less gain (and very different gain character..more like a JCM 800-meets-Orange of some sort, even more open and spongy....like vintage or even modern Sabbath) ...so curious that's all.

[JMP/HBE]

The real 5150 amps.

[JamesPaul]

WAT?

I think it is SPAM. I am going to flag it.

[devastone]

I think it is SPAM. I am going to flag it.

Already done.

[devastone]

They're pretty much going the Laboga Beast route with their advertising... ie. the 2 x12AX7 "pure tube" power (implies no SS clipping) thing's going to get people's attention.. this is after all a 5150 we're talking about

You can use SS to increase the signal (gain) and still get the distortion from the tubes. "SS clipping" generally is associated with using clipping diodes, like a distortion pedal. While that has been done (even some of the Jose mods), I'm guessing that isn't what is going on in these, of course, I could be wrong, haven't seen one of these.

[Phantasmagoria]

WAT?

Ok I misread ..apparently the preamp/tonestack design is different too,,,,but yeah something about the tranny core being different or the windings or something (1st para of the description) which supposedly makes a difference. Both amps do LOOK identical with the same controls/layout/no.of tubes etc.


Like I said, whatever they've done to make it (Beast 30 plus) as gainy as it is is impressive. But if it's all from just two 12AX7's in the pre section (which is what they imply) ..that's even more impressive. Not that it makes any diff to me at all. Just like how it sounds

[Phantasmagoria]

You can use SS to increase the signal (gain) and still get the distortion from the tubes. "SS clipping" generally is associated with using clipping diodes, like a distortion pedal. While that has been done (even some of the Jose mods), I'm guessing that isn't what is going on in these, of course, I could be wrong, haven't seen one of these.

yeah, like with op-amps and stuff. But my guess is they're pushing the "pure tube" thing because it's.. well, "pure tube" ...so no SS boosts, op-amp's/chips/clipping diodes etc of any kind would be my guess

I mean people are going to be all-over this design, opening it up & pretty much probing around everything the moment it's available ..they can't afford to be discredited or have fingers pointed...that's kinda what happened with Blackstar who used to be quite the flavour of the month at one point.