FRFR cabs vs. traditional guitar cabs for gigs

[Inflames626]

Thanks ErikH. I've been in all sorts of live situations, a lot of times with Peavey stuff from the 70s or 80s and equipment that hasn't been updated in decades, or even places without clean power and needing a power conditioner. A lot of times places still use floor wedges for monitoring.

I still have kind of an old school "turn your amp up loud enough" or "mic it if you can't be loud enough" mentality.

I thought having FRFR and IEM close together might cause some kind of loop. I've never used IEMs either. They seem kind of high end for modest gigs--I've seen separate monitoring and FOH engineers, and obviously the more you add on (assuming the band brings their own people instead of using the venue's), the overhead goes up.

I really need to brush up on my live sound knowledge so it is as strong as my home recording knowledge.

[Inflames626]

Edit: also having an IEM and stage monitor at the same time would seem to be redundant and maybe confusing, unless one mix carries the whole band and the other just carries your instrument.

It would seem to me like trying to have a telephone conversation while listening to music at the same time.

[Inflames626]

Plus a lot of bands still want to use a 4x12 backline for looks, so imagining those little FRFR speakers as being loud enough to work even as monitors on stage seems surprising.

[Mincer]

Mincer, the smallness/lightness is why I thought they might not be as road worthy.

They travel in a soft case, and they are still in amazing shape.

[ErikH]

Thanks ErikH. I've been in all sorts of live situations, a lot of times with Peavey stuff from the 70s or 80s and equipment that hasn't been updated in decades, or even places without clean power and needing a power conditioner. A lot of times places still use floor wedges for monitoring.

I still have kind of an old school "turn your amp up loud enough" or "mic it if you can't be loud enough" mentality.

I thought having FRFR and IEM close together might cause some kind of loop. I've never used IEMs either. They seem kind of high end for modest gigs--I've seen separate monitoring and FOH engineers, and obviously the more you add on (assuming the band brings their own people instead of using the venue's), the overhead goes up.

I really need to brush up on my live sound knowledge so it is as strong as my home recording knowledge.

When I started playing with people it was the same kinda thing. Front wedges and turn the amps up. Things have changed drastically with live sound. Having an FRFR and an IEM won't do any harm or cause any loop. What you have the in the IEM is your own personal mix of the whole band, even yourself. Think of it like this, you're taking what floor monitor mix you would have in front of you and putting in an IEM. My last band, we had 2 wedges out front and our drummer had a wedge. The rhythm guitar player used IEMs and he had a FRFR for his modeling unit floorboard. Sometimes our lead player would use IEMs and he too had a FRFR that was by my bass cabinet.

There's no rule that you have to use one or the other or both. Some will use IEMs but have a wedge or two on stand-by in case the IEMs go out and then they can still hear everything when taking them out. Otherwise, you're relying on hearing what is going out the FOH for what you can't hear.

In the worship band I play in, we use IEMs for everyone. No stage wedges at all. The only thing you hear on stage is the drums behind the shield and some acoustic guitar. We have our own mixes in the IEMs.

If you're doing old school stuff, you could easily use a FRFR, even the Headrush 12" would be great, and send a signal to the FOH and if the PA is vocals only, turn it up. Think of it like this, your modeler is like taking your old school pedalboard, amp, mic'd up speaker cabinet, and putting it in to the digital world in a nice compact unit. The FRFR is like the PA that said mic'd cab would run through. That's the simplest concept. And sending the FRFR to the FOH PA is simply an XLR cable connection away.

Depending on the band, a lot of backlines I see now are a banner on either side of the drums with the bands logo or name on them and that sits in front of whatever speakers are behind it. If you need a 4x12 on stage for looks, get one that is unloaded and sit that on the stage and then put the FRFR where you need it.

The whole modeling / FRFR and using with or without a PA is pretty simple. Just take the big stuff and squeeze it down in to an itty bitty living space....lol.

[ErikH]

Essentially, when it comes to IEMs, they are literal replacements for stage wedges. Some like them, some don't, but they do take getting used it. And you'll tweak that mix until you get it right.

[Inflames626]

When I started playing with people it was the same kinda thing. Front wedges and turn the amps up. Things have changed drastically with live sound. Having an FRFR and an IEM won't do any harm or cause any loop. What you have the in the IEM is your own personal mix of the whole band, even yourself. Think of it like this, you're taking what floor monitor mix you would have in front of you and putting in an IEM. My last band, we had 2 wedges out front and our drummer had a wedge. The rhythm guitar player used IEMs and he had a FRFR for his modeling unit floorboard. Sometimes our lead player would use IEMs and he too had a FRFR that was by my bass cabinet.

There's no rule that you have to use one or the other or both. Some will use IEMs but have a wedge or two on stand-by in case the IEMs go out and then they can still hear everything when taking them out. Otherwise, you're relying on hearing what is going out the FOH for what you can't hear.

In the worship band I play in, we use IEMs for everyone. No stage wedges at all. The only thing you hear on stage is the drums behind the shield and some acoustic guitar. We have our own mixes in the IEMs.

If you're doing old school stuff, you could easily use a FRFR, even the Headrush 12" would be great, and send a signal to the FOH and if the PA is vocals only, turn it up. Think of it like this, your modeler is like taking your old school pedalboard, amp, mic'd up speaker cabinet, and putting it in to the digital world in a nice compact unit. The FRFR is like the PA that said mic'd cab would run through. That's the simplest concept. And sending the FRFR to the FOH PA is simply an XLR cable connection away.

Depending on the band, a lot of backlines I see now are a banner on either side of the drums with the bands logo or name on them and that sits in front of whatever speakers are behind it. If you need a 4x12 on stage for looks, get one that is unloaded and sit that on the stage and then put the FRFR where you need it.

The whole modeling / FRFR and using with or without a PA is pretty simple. Just take the big stuff and squeeze it down in to an itty bitty living space....lol.

Yeah I am thinking of this in a very stripped down situation, like a club that might as well be a backyard party. Maybe 200 people or less.

I thought there wouldn't be a dedicated person to do IEM mixes, and the guy doing FOH (if there even is one) would be too busy doing his own thing, if he even cares.

So I'm thinking, "Okay, plug the modeling into the power amp and the FRFR. Turn it up louder than the drums. Not really set up for IEM. Wash from monitors clashing with what's coming from behind me."

At GIT (where I had most of my live playing experience) we had mostly the RIT (recording) guys handle everything for us. So we got up there, tweaked our amps a bit, plugged in, and got to it. That was like 2000 though. You could hear up there but it was like listening to yourself playing on the other side of a door or wall.

The moment they get off stage your buddies say, "How'd it sound?" And I'd say the same thing when I was finished too.

[ErikH]

Yeah I am thinking of this in a very stripped down situation, like a club that might as well be a backyard party. Maybe 200 people or less.

I thought there wouldn't be a dedicated person to do IEM mixes, and the guy doing FOH (if there even is one) would be too busy doing his own thing, if he even cares.

So I'm thinking, "Okay, plug the modeling into the power amp and the FRFR. Turn it up louder than the drums. Not really set up for IEM. Wash from monitors clashing with what's coming from behind me."

At GIT (where I had most of my live playing experience) we had mostly the RIT (recording) guys handle everything for us. So we got up there, tweaked our amps a bit, plugged in, and got to it. That was like 2000 though. You could hear up there but it was like listening to yourself playing on the other side of a door or wall.

The moment they get off stage your buddies say, "How'd it sound?" And I'd say the same thing when I was finished too.

If it's that type of environment and you have a PA with stage monitors, you can either run a FRFR for yourself or not. Just plug the modeler in to the PA and run it through the stage monitors and FOH. That's very common now in small situations. I would have a FRFR there myself. And again, you do not need a power amp unless you get a FRFR that is passive. A lot of them have D class power amps in them with plenty of power on hand.

[ErikH]

I thought there wouldn't be a dedicated person to do IEM mixes, and the guy doing FOH (if there even is one) would be too busy doing his own thing, if he even cares.

IEMs would be handled as part of the stage monitor mix. Sometimes the FOH guy would handle that and sometimes there's a separate sound guy for the stage. When we'd play larger festivals, there was always 2 sound guys but when we played out our own gigs with our PA, it was the same sound guy that we had doing FOH. Stage monitors where usually set and forget. Any IEMs would be adjusted too if needed and mostly left alone throughout the gig. The cool thing about the mixer we had (QSC Touchmix 16) is it has a Wi-Fi hotspot and security options so any mobile device that connected to it, or iPad, could have security set to only what that person needs to see. Example, my phone connects, but it has permission to only see the stage monitor 1 mix, and that is all that I could adjust from my phone. Pretty cool stuff nowadays. And we started using that mixer more than 10 years ago.

With the band I'm in now, it's pretty old school because we don't play very loud. The PA handles the vocals and the guitar amps are set to where they need to be to throw sound. No mic'ing up.

[Inflames626]

Thanks ErikH. So kind of you to break it down for me patiently in such detail.

I also noticed it seems some metal drummers have their own small mixers on hand, usually to one side, and sometimes even wear over the ear monitors. Seems like a drummer thing.

That said that form of music is usually acoustic drums blended with triggered samples because the kicks have to be fast and tight. It's hard to play John Bonham style drums 16th notes at 200 bpm and not have it sound like noise.

[donaldr]

When I'm playing with the band, I'm using a PA power cab as a wedge. We are all direct to FOH (meaning Roland V-Drums) and we have a relatively quiet stage, so we don't need IEM. Personally I would go direct to FOH and using a poweramp/cab at the same time. You would need different EQ for each one, which is more complicated for nothing. And never mic an FRFR speaker, it doesn't make sense. Just use your XLR out to FOH.

Work your tone on loud PA speakers before gigs and go direct to FOH with your Axe-FX. I love going to a gig with only a guitar in my gigbag and a 2u rack with my Eleven Rack. Remove front and back lids, power cable to power outlet, XLR cable to FOH and midi cable to my little Tech21 Midi Mongoose: 3 minutes setup.

[Mincer]

Mincer, the smallness/lightness is why I thought they might not be as road worthy.

In my case, the QSC cab goes into a padded case. It seems to have held up.