Has modelling "topped out"?

[Aden]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

na, it's not going away. It's too good and too cheep to go away, that's for sure. Direct home recording has gotten really good, and will only get better. I doubt it will replace tube amps, but modeling gear will become increasingly more common on stage.

As for if it has toped out or if it's not going to progress any further. I also say no It's software, and new ideas with software spring up all the time, and as our society becomes increasingly computer dependent, more people familiar with software will be able to come up with ideas. Modeling real historic amps is a slow process. Most of the models that are around now are of single channels of amps, or certain sounds, not everything that can come out of them. As companies like roland and line 6 increasingly and more completely "copy" amps there will simply build-up of model libraries. As for new ways to implement them, and new gadgets for modeling, or non-tube guitar technology who knows what will come next, but you can bet there will be some.

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

After thinking about it for a minute, I thought of another brilliant idea for Line 6.
So far, they've been creating upgrade packs like Metalshop, Classic, and FX.
What they should do is create a software upgrade or a XT 2. What that would be is a cabinet modeling output section upgrade that allows you to choose which tube power amp you intend to use, and specifically voices it for that particular tube power amp. For instance, the upgrade would give you options for varying levels of touch sensitivity and EQ for Mesa 20/20, 295, 100/100, Marshall Dual Mono Block, VHT, MOSValve, Carvin 1000 SS, PA systems etc. This upgrade would be similar to cab modeling, but would be specifically for dialing in the POD to a variety of other companies amps.
Just an idea.

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You may have me there, but I must ask...

Unless tube amps start sounding miserable some day, why would anyone try to innovate on their design? Do you honestly believe it's possible for the basic design to be altered to sound THAT much better?

You've got to admit, there's a lot of tube amps out there that sound like ass. Heck, even my Bassman sounds horrible at or below 2, and it's pretty darn loud at that point.

What would be cool is if someone made a tube amp that sounded good at all levels.

The master volume came out in the '70's right? Can't anyone figure out something better?

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

You've got to admit, there's a lot of tube amps out there that sound like ass. Heck, even my Bassman sounds horrible at or below 2, and it's pretty darn loud at that point.

What would be cool is if someone made a tube amp that sounded good at all levels.

The master volume came out in the '70's right? Can't anyone figure out something better?

Better question would be, why buy a 50+watt tube amp if you don't want volume?

I don't think most companies design around the idea that their raging 100watt halfstacks will spend 90% of their life in someone's bedroom below 2.

That's why you can get a pod with a headphone jack or run a digitech pedal into a computer like I do...

And you can use attenuators, hell doesn't THD build them into some of their amps? Sad waste of tubes, but hey if you never intend on cranking up, oh well.

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Still, with that much money, you can afford a high end line of Chieftan amps, which are going to sound more organic.

I dunno, amp modelling never did it for me because I like the response and feeling of actually playing through an amp. Besides, how are they supposed to simulate string-fade-into-feedback?

I can bet you that the high end modelling rig will be way more consistent as far as sound quality than the Chieftains.

Also, about the "string-fade-into-feedback" comment, how much time have you really spent tweaking and playing a modeller?

I ask because I've not had any problem using any playing technique with my modeling rig that I've used with my normal amps.

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Better question would be, why buy a 50+watt tube amp if you don't want volume?

I don't think most companies design around the idea that their raging 100watt halfstacks will spend 90% of their life in someone's bedroom below 2.

That's why you can get a pod with a headphone jack or run a digitech pedal into a computer like I do...

And you can use attenuators, hell doesn't THD build them into some of their amps? Sad waste of tubes, but hey if you never intend on cranking up, oh well.

Ever play an outdoor festival for 3,000 people one weekend and a gig at a 100 person club the next? I have. 50 watts is barely enough for the first and way, way to much for the second gig.


Attenuators change tone, modelers are consistent.

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Consistent at what? Ehhh probably shouldn't say what I'm thinking.

Ever heard of PA though? Seriously? Get a 30watt combo and PA it for the 3000 person gig and you can run it straight up in the club.

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I can bet you that the high end modelling rig will be way more consistent as far as sound quality than the Chieftains.

Also, about the "string-fade-into-feedback" comment, how much time have you really spent tweaking and playing a modeller?

I ask because I've not had any problem using any playing technique with my modeling rig that I've used with my normal amps.

Actually, in my experience, an amp is more consistent. Sure, maybe you need to change tubes every once in a while, but honestly it's part of the upkeep of a tube amp. I don't have to tweak and play with an amp: set it up, put knobs where they go, and viola! Same with my ME-50 ironically. I don't have time for modelers. To me, an amp is more consistent, period. Granted, if mine dies, oh well: Line Out into PA with my effects pedal, but it's 100% consistent because it simulates, not emulates, an amp, so I sound like me, not like I'm trying to be something else.

Besides, regardless of sound, with a tube amp if it dies, either fix the tube (usual problem) or go buy/rent another for the gig. Tube amps that are made point-to-point inside are easy to fix: buy a soldering kit. The tube amp is also going to sound much better (yes, my ears are that good). The tone of a Fender Twin Reverb or Peavey Delta Blues 2x10 combo is going to consistently be louder, phatter, and more organic than any simulation. Sure, 90% of your fans might not be able to tell, but me, I can tell, so I don't use emulators.

Bottom line, it's a preference thing, and for what I do, tube amps are better. In fact, if my effects unit dies, I can cover myself straight into a Peavey Delta Blues, or even just say "screw it" and go right into my TR for a "refreshing change". My tone would SO rule if I had to do that. If your emulator dies, you're SOL without an amp.

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

The GT-8 is leaps and bounds better in terms of features and sound quality than its predecessor. Trust me, I've been on Roland modeling since the VF-1 (rack version of the GT-3).

So far, I have not even seen the point in upgrading from the GT-6. All I saw was more features I didn't need. Even the guy featured on the Roland website who was part of the GT-8 giveaway is still using GT-5s for his rig.

[Mincer]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

as far as the GT-8/Pro upgrade goes, it is worth it for the dual amps- you can pan them, or instantly change with picking dynamics...the PC editor with the Pro is really great too.

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Consistent at what? Ehhh probably shouldn't say what I'm thinking.

Ever heard of PA though? Seriously? Get a 30watt combo and PA it for the 3000 person gig and you can run it straight up in the club.

I run everything through a PA all the time.

Ever play a 30 watter OUTDOORS? You won't have a clean channel.

30 watts is cool in a small club, that is, if you're not relying on power amp distortion to get your tones. If that's te case, why play a tube amp at all?

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world, I'd be all tube all the time. "To hell with everybody's ear drums! Roadie! Set up another 6 AC-30's!"

Sadly, I'm not rich enough to afford all the tones in my head nor famous enough to piss off all the bar owners across the world.

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Another thing I just thought of as to why some people don't like cover bands AND amp modelling:

When you hear, say, some band play a Nirvana cover like Teen Spirit, you've heard the original before, so your mind starts comparing it to the original recording. There's always going to be something they didn't do exactly like the recording (i.e. they're not Kirt Cobain, they don't own his guitar, his amp, his pedal, etc), so your mind isn't going to like it as much as the original.

That's the way tube amp emulation is to my mind and ears. It's not the original, so I don't like it. Sure, some day computers will be able to deceive us, but for now, I prefer the organic real thing.

[Aden]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Actually, in my experience, an amp is more consistent. Sure, maybe you need to change tubes every once in a while, but honestly it's part of the upkeep of a tube amp. I don't have to tweak and play with an amp: set it up, put knobs where they go, and viola! Same with my ME-50 ironically. I don't have time for modelers. To me, an amp is more consistent, period. Granted, if mine dies, oh well: Line Out into PA with my effects pedal, but it's 100% consistent because it simulates, not emulates, an amp, so I sound like me, not like I'm trying to be something else.

That doesn't sound like a lack of consistency by modelers, a modeler will sound like how you set it unless it's not plugged in. It sounds to me like you just don't have the patients to tweak modelers to get a sound you want. That's totally cool, to each their own. If you don't want to mess with a modeler and turning amp nobs is more rewarding thats your thing; and if you think the sound of an amp surpasses all modelers thats cool too. But It doesn't have anything to do with consistency. A modeler will either be plugged in and working with the setting you saved to it, or it'll be broken and you need to buy a new one. Same with a solid state amp for the most part.

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I run everything through a PA all the time.

Ever play a 30 watter OUTDOORS? You won't have a clean channel.

30 watts is cool in a small club, that is, if you're not relying on power amp distortion to get your tones. If that's te case, why play a tube amp at all?

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world, I'd be all tube all the time. "To hell with everybody's ear drums! Roadie! Set up another 6 AC-30's!"

Sadly, I'm not rich enough to afford all the tones in my head nor famous enough to piss off all the bar owners across the world.

I've played 100W indoors and had cleans: i.e. my Twin Reverb. But it's overkill in a small club, true. But I'd still prefer, in that scenario, the Peavey Delta Blues because it has distortion, tremolo, and reverb: all I'd need, practically. Also, I'm lucky my Twin Reverb has channel volumes and master volume separate of each other: I can max out the channel and turn down the master for some very sexy overdrive.

I'm not saying emulation is a piece of @#$ and I'll never use it. Every situation is different. I just don't like it. I don't think of this thread as a "yes/no emulation sucks", just that it's a preference thing, and I would rather lug around my heavy Twin Reverb than use emulation. With age and health, however, my opinion might change

[davedvdy]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Most emulations I have heard on POD or any BOSS, sound thinner/flatter recorded direct to recording.