how to record bass?

[spuds]

Whats the standard way to record a bass guitar in the stuido?

How about live? How does a bassit get his signal to the mixing board? DI from amp?

Thanks

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how to record bass?

Depending on your situation, it may vary.

Live:
Most venues use a direct box. One output goes to the amp for stage volume, and the other goes to the sound engineer's desk. The same can be done with a Sans Amp, if you're using one.

Recording:
Here's where it gets tricky. Getting a good bass sound is tough, because there is so much going on, frequency-wise. You want to get low end, of course, but you don't want to miss out on a great bass tones midrange growl and you need the high frequencies for finger noise, otherwise the sound is over-damped and lifeless.

The simplest way to record bass is with a Sans Amp and compressor. This will get you a fairly good tone, just going straight into the desk, but you will need to do some tweaking. Expect to set the compression ratio to about 4:1 with a pretty low threshold. That is a generalization, of course.

For my upcoming album, we went with a different approach. My bass player uses an Ampeg stack, and this is what we did -->

After dialing in a good tone in the room, we blocked off the area around the amp with studio baffles. This keeps room reflections from coming back into the mic's at oblique, out of phase angles. A blanket thrown over the amp will have the same basic effect. You want as much direct sound from the amp as possible. We turned it up to live playing volume in order to get the amp really cooking. (It's an Ampeg SVT 350H head)

I split the signal using a BBE 411 (from 1985, I think), with the process off, but I did use the gain. A direct box will do the same thing. One output went direct into the amp head, and the other went direct into the HDR (hard disk recorder).

For the top 4x10 cab, I placed a BLUE The Ball mic on it, centered on one of the drivers, close to the cab. This mic ran to an ART tube mic pre, phantom on, and then balanced into one channel of the HDR (hard disk recoreder).

For the bottom 1x15 cab, I placed a Shure SM57, slightly off axis, also close to the cab. This ran balanced into another channel on the HDR.

We then tracked each input to its own seperate track. That gives you total flexability to dial in any tone you want, and then you can correct/mix it with EQ. When recording this way, we use compression at the mixing stage, not the recording stage.

** NOTE: This was done at my own studio, not at a commercial facility. It doesn't take a lot of $$ to get a great bass sound, just time + patience. **

Hope you found this helpful!

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how to record bass?

I always did it dry direct and dropped the rail levels to keep it from spiking.

What is rail level?

[spuds]

Re: how to record bass?

thanks for your help.

Dumb question but... why must I use a DI?
Can't i just plug it straight into the mixer/HD recorder?

P.S. ACK... now you tell me! I just sold my Sans Amp for a big loss! Hahah

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how to record bass?

Dumb question but... why must I use a DI?
Can't i just plug it straight into the mixer/HD recorder?

Not a dumb question at all!! The reason is because the output impedence of your instrument is higher than the input inpedence on the board. So, unless you have a Hi-Z input on the board, you can potentially damage the input. Also, it will affect the sonics of the bass itself.

[Hellion]

Re: how to record bass?

SansAmp & Compressor direct into the board. If I'm printing to tape, I've sometimes bypassed the board completely and went right into the machine. I don't like miking the amp, there's a slight delay from the speaker to the mic.

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how to record bass?

SansAmp & Compressor direct into the board. If I'm printing to tape, I've sometimes bypassed the board completely and went right into the machine. I don't like miking the amp, there's a slight delay from the speaker to the mic.

Sound travels at approximately 1100' per second. That means for each foot away you place the mic, you get about one mS of delay. If you close mic a cabinet, which is an inch or so away from the cab, your total delay is about 1/12th of a millisecond. I would like to see that proven that you can actually hear that.

At worst, it will fatten up the sound, if anything ...

[Hellion]

Re: how to record bass?

Sound travels at approximately 1100' per second. That means for each foot away you place the mic, you get about one mS of delay. If you close mic a cabinet, which is an inch or so away from the cab, your total delay is about 1/12th of a millisecond. I would like to see that proven that you can actually hear that.

At worst, it will fatten up the sound, if anything ...

I can tell a difference in the groove. That 1 millisecond of delay makes a difference. And why would you want to close mic a bass cab, when the sound wave takes a good foot to actually be produced? And I don't remember this thread being titled "let's argue about recording bass." I was merely telling you how I do it. There's no right or wrong way here.

[Hellion]

Re: how to record bass?

Recording:
Here's where it gets tricky. Getting a good bass sound is tough, because there is so much going on, frequency-wise. You want to get low end, of course, but you don't want to miss out on a great bass tones midrange growl and you need the high frequencies for finger noise, otherwise the sound is over-damped and lifeless.

The simplest way to record bass is with a Sans Amp and compressor. This will get you a fairly good tone, just going straight into the desk, but you will need to do some tweaking. Expect to set the compression ratio to about 4:1 with a pretty low threshold. That is a generalization, of course.
!

Besides, you record bass the same way that I do, so why do you have such a problem with my method?

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how to record bass?

I don't have a problem with your method; whatever makes you happy makes me doubly so!! I do have a problem with you stating unprovable opinion as fact.

You're missing out on what is truly capable by mixing the two methods tho. Most engineers will recommend that you mic and DI bass. It just gives you more options, and a better sound; one that more truly represents what is going on in the room. The result is a more seemless blending of tones. That little bit of 'air' from the cab makes the bass sound like it's in the same place as the guitars and drums. Instead of sounding like it was pasted onto the mix; it's what I call the "Colorform Effect".

As for your stated '1 mS' of delay, it is considered impossible to hear any delay below 11 mS. And we're talking about mic'ing a cab ONE INCH from the cab, not ONE FOOT. The time delay is negligible.

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how to record bass?

Besides, you record bass the same way that I do, so why do you have such a problem with my method?

I don't record this way; I was merely stating that it's the easist way to get decent bass. Not the best way.

[Byakhee00]

Re: how to record bass?

I'd say use a mic and DI combo, depending on your tastes. Blend 'em.

[spuds]

Re: how to record bass?

another question...

why invest in good bass amps if everything seems to be direct to the board? Like... you blow all your savings on an amp but all (or most) of the sound that ends up on the recording is just through a DI??

And geez... one other thing (sorry, I'm a guitarist trying to learn bass!)
I've ppl play bass amps with 10 inch speakers as well as 15 inch speakers. Whats the deal? Am I supposed to use both to get a decent sound? Can you use 10 inch speakers without a 15 inch one? vice vesa?

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how to record bass?

another question...

why invest in good bass amps if everything seems to be direct to the board? Like... you blow all your savings on an amp but all (or most) of the sound that ends up on the recording is just through a DI??

And geez... one other thing (sorry, I'm a guitarist trying to learn bass!)
I've ppl play bass amps with 10 inch speakers as well as 15 inch speakers. Whats the deal? Am I supposed to use both to get a decent sound? Can you use 10 inch speakers without a 15 inch one? vice vesa?

The same question could be asked of guitarists. If you can get a VG88, why buy a great amplifier?

1. Because you still need something you can use live. Who doesn't want a
good live tone?

2. The prefered method is not to use a Sans Amp; it is to mic the bass amp and run a DI in addition to it. The real reason a DI is run is not so that it can be used as a actual track on the album ...

3. Most bass players prefer using multiple cabinets, much like guitarists do, but for slightly different reasons. Guitarists enjoy the extra dispersion and higher resolution you get from multiple cabinets. Bass players have a tremendous tonal need. They need good, snappy midrange, and intense dynamics, so you can hear what they're doing. 10" drivers are faster than 12" drivers, and are well suited to this purpose. And they also need the necessary bottom end, which you get when you add a 1x15 or 1x18 cabinet.

Hope this answers your questions.

[Tom M]

Re: how to record bass?

The bigger the speaker, the bigger the bass. You CAN use 10s and 15s. A real popular combination of speakers is 4x10 and 1x15. Some people use 18s. Some people use 8s. It's all a matter of how loud and low you want to go.