Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

[KeeperOS]

I'm not sure I understand the difference.

In the beginning I just thought it was simply different ways to say the same thing until I noticed that various manufacturers (namely Jackson) used the word "veneer" on their lower end guitars an "top" for their higher end ones.

Is there a difference and which is it?

 

[Johtosotku]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

A real top is thick, while a veneer is just a veneer. The veneer is just for looks, while the top adds something to the sound.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

Actually, now we come to question no. 2.

I've seen several companies listing their guitars as "with figured Maple top on trans finishes.
What happens with the solid color finishes. Do they get just a plain Maple top or not top at all. Wouldn't that effectively make the sound of the trans vs the solid finished guitars different?

 

[Johtosotku]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

Actually, now we come to question no. 2.

I've seen several companies listing their guitars as "with figured Maple top on trans finishes.
What happens with the solid color finishes. Do they get just a plain Maple top or not top at all. Wouldn't that effectively make the sound of the trans vs the solid finished guitars different?

It depends totally on the company. Some brands don't have a top on solid colours, especially if the tops are just veneers on trans finishes. I guess most have plain maple under solid colours. But I remember that some people have stripped the finish off of their solid coloured guitars and found a figured top. But they're probably B-grade if they're figured. Nice figured maple is too expensive to left unseen.

And people generally believe that a maple top makes a difference in the sound, and that the extent of the difference depends on the thickness of the top. I don't think that anyone believes there to be a tonal difference between figured and plain maple.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

johtosotku is right. a veneer is usually no more than 1 or 2 mm thick and will have no real sonic effect. the glue will have as much effect as the veneer. a top will have more sonic effect as it gets thicker. so a carved les paul style top that is 1/2" in the middle will have more effect than a 1/4" flat top.

figured maple on trans finishes means just that, they use figured wood with trans finishes. the other part isnt so clear. it could be either of the possibilitys that you mentioned plain top or no top. i would hope that in most cases they just use a plain top. but if there is no top at all then it would effect the tone.

and actually figured maple can sound different than plain maple. figured is typically soft maple while plain tends to be hard maple

 

[jeremy]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

I don't think that anyone believes there to be a tonal difference between figured and plain maple.

if the top is 1/4" thick i dont think youll hear much if any difference but with a thicker top then i think it can be audible. my friend and i basically built les paul style guitars side by side the only real difference was the top wood. mine was a very very hard maple which was a bear to work with and his was a much softer variety. mine has a brighter snappier tone with a touch more focus while his is warmer and fatter sounding. the mahogany used for the bodies and necks was from the same board and the two rosewood fingerboards were almost identical

 

[donnievaz]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

Higher end guitars will have a solid figured maple cap where the figure goes all the way through the piece of maple. The mid to lower end will have a plain maple cap with a thin veneer of real figured maple laminated to the top of the plain maple cap. I highly doubt anyone could hear a difference between the two.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

Actually it would be really cool if that's what they'd do. As you said the difference in tone would be pretty small and the aesthetic part would be equally satisfying.

However I tend to think they use no cap at all.
Some companies like Schecter for instance say it out clearly, like in the C-1 Hellraiser. When you go from the redish quilt top to the black you see that the specs change.

On others however it isn't as clear...

 

[jmh151]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

It depends totally on the company. Some brands don't have a top on solid colours, especially if the tops are just veneers on trans finishes. I guess most have plain maple under solid colours. But I remember that some people have stripped the finish off of their solid coloured guitars and found a figured top. But they're probably B-grade if they're figured. Nice figured maple is too expensive to left unseen.

I am one of those people. I bought a 1986 Alpine White Gibson Les Paul Custom around 1989 when I was in High School (it was used). It was a factory second since there was some discoloration in the finish. While doing some electronics work on it, I sanded some of the electronics cavity, and found flame maple.

I stripped the top, and found an insanely flamed maple top- but it had a knot behind the bridge. It looks like Gibson had a beautiful perfect piece of flame maple, maybe custom shop, but once they carved the top they found a knot underneath. So they painted it white instead. I like the knot, it gives it character, not to mention that at the time, it was the closest I'd ever get to a real flame top Les Paul.

Most companies will use a veneer but advertise it as a "flame maple top" simply because people think veneer = cheap and will turn people off.

A veneer is paper thin. A "flame maple top" could mean anything. My opinion is if you try to refinish a veneer, you have to be extra careful not to sand through the veneer. Real flame maple tops are thick enough that you won't be able to sand through. The thinnest actual top I can think of are the "drop top" types like Warmoth, Tom Anderson- which use maybe a 3/32"" top bent to the shape. Warmoth claims this has a minimal effect on tone. The quilt maple top on my axis is 1/8".

I wouldn't necessarily say veneers are cheap. All the accent wood you see in Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguars, are highly figured veneers over plywood. Most expensive furniture you see these days use veneers.

Some import guitars, most notably Edwards, will use a plain maple top on a Les Paul, and put a flame maple veneer on it, so you get the tone of a maple top.

 

[donnievaz]

Re: Figured Maple TOP vs Figured Maple VENEER?

Actually it would be really cool if that's what they'd do. As you said the difference in tone would be pretty small and the aesthetic part would be equally satisfying.

However I tend to think they use no cap at all.
Some companies like Schecter for instance say it out clearly, like in the C-1 Hellraiser. When you go from the redish quilt top to the black you see that the specs change.

On others however it isn't as clear...

I know for a fact that both of my import Deans have plain maple caps w/ veneer and every Agile LP I've seen (at least 6) does it that way. It depends on what the manufacturer is going for. On a LP or PRS style guitar you'll see this method, on Strat and SuperStrat types it's more likely going to be the veneer with no cap. Ibanez is a good example, I don't know of any of their flamed/quilted models that have a maple cap, just veneer over basswood or mahogany.