G and B strings....intonation??

[Buckeyedog]

Why is it that when the G & B strings are in tune when played open, but are slightly out when fretting a D chord. I've had this problem for years on various guitars. I don't have a strobe for intonation, but with a regular tuner, the bridge adjustments seem to be ok. Is a strobe the only way to correct this or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks,
Kevin

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

Bump

[southadc]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

If you're playing an open D, I'm guessing you're using your first and third fingers to fret the G and B strings respectively?

I personally find I press the strings harder with these fingers than my other fingers, maybe you're doing the same? That would maybe explain why it happens to you on different guitars.

Trying pressing the strings more lightly, using a different fingering to fret the chord shape, or getting a friend to play it on one of your guitars. See if it still sounds out then.

[Bludave]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

If your ear is good enough you can intonate a guitar without a tuner. Trust your ear. I have used some tuners that don't tune as well as my ear. A boss TU12 or similar that has a meter is all you should really need. When intonation is correct the guitar will be in tune up and down the neck. Here is what you will need to do.

1. Tune the guitar to pitch (A440)
2. Check the harmonic at the 12th fret, and then fret the note at the 12th fret. They should be the same. If they are not you will have to adjust the bridge saddles.
IF the fretted note is flat, move the saddle forward (towards the neck). Sharp move it back. After each adjustment retune the string and check the harmonic and fretted note again.
IF you change string gauges you will need to intonate the guitar again. Intonation is more than likley what is causing this problem. It is also possible that the nut on the guitar could be causing some of it. Check the nut slots, make sure the strings are seated properly, and are not binding in the slots. Good luck!

[Buckeyedog]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

Great anwers, thanks guys!

[Gearjoneser]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

The deal with that is that the mathematics of the frets are not 100% correct.
When the guitar is tuned for a perfect E chord, the A chord and D chord may not be 100% intonated. This is a defect of the guitar that Buzz Feiten, a 70's fusion player and now Barbara Streisand's musical director, finally figured out. I was told that he's a smart mathematician who figured out how to angle the nut and certain frets in a certain way, in order to achieve 100% perfect intonation on every chord on the neck.
It has to be built into the guitar, when fretting it, so a few manufacturers like Washburn, Martin and others, are finally instituting it on their new guitars.

However, if you intonate a normal guitar using this method, your G&B, and all the rest, will be as good as possible. When you intonate, don't just be satisfied with the open note matching the fretted 12th fret. Fine tune the intonation by making sure every note from the 10th to the 20th read dead center on a good tuner. If ANY of those notes aren't pretty close to dead center on your tuner, fine tune your adjustments by nudging your saddles into perfection. When you pick up your guitar, in perfect tune, then check all the notes above the 10th fret with your tuner, and they are all centered, this will clear up ANY intonation problem you might have.

[Gearjoneser]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

And, like BlueDave said, make sure the nut slots are cut big enough and deep enough, so that none of your notes are bending sharp on the 1st and 2nd frets.

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

Good info, BlueDave and GJ!

[Buckeyedog]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

More good stuff......really appreciate the input here!! And GJ, the fat 50's sound fabulous on my SRV strat along with the blender pot and master tone control! Thanks for that recommendation as well.

[Fresh_Start]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

FWIW G.J. has it right about intonating up and down the fretboard (not just at the 12th fret) IMHO. I've found that each neck/guitar has slight imperfections in fret placement, but if you start intonating on the 12th, then the 9th, then the 15th, and back to the 12th, you'll get damn close.

Also, the Peterson VS-II "virtual strobe" tuner gives you the option of tuning with adjustments (called temperament) specifically intended for a guitar. You intonate for "equal" temperament, then tune for "guitar". Cures what Buckeyedog was talking about as well as it can be, short of a compensated, nut or fanned frets.

My rhythm sense stinks, but my sense of pitch is pretty good. The VS-II sure isn't cheap, but it works like a champ for me and was worth it since I'm putting project guitars together and do my own setups.

Chip

[Gearjoneser]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

I'd love to buy one of those Peterson digital strobe tuners, but usually use either a
Boss TU-12 or the LED tuner on my Vox modeling amp.

I've noticed that the autumn weather change is effecting the necks on some of my guitars, especially the ones on stands near a window.

Last night, I picked up a strat and tele that weren't playing as perfect as usual.
I like to do my trussrod adjustments while playing the guitar through an amp, so I found the sweet spot with the allen wrench, where the neck is straight, but has just enough relief to minimize the fretbuzz. After tuning the guitar perfectly, I then started checking all the notes from the 9th fret up to the 20th, making very slight saddle adjustments till all those notes were centered on my tuner. The intonation was perfect, the action was perfect, and the guitar stayed in tune with all the chords ringing nicely. That's all it takes to do away with those sour G & B problems.
If you think your nut is cut too high, it's best to pay a tech $20 to get the slots seated properly. If you changed to another string gauge, sometimes all you have to do is fold a piece of fine grit sandpaper, and run it through the slots to widen them a tiny bit. It's best to use proper files, but the sandpaper trick works for slight adjustments.

[Buckeyedog]

Re: G and B strings....intonation??

Man, there is definitely something wrong with my axe. There are basically no slots in the nut....the strings just barely set in there. I adjusted that intonation until all the notes were on then the open B string is dead on.....the G string is dead on. When I strum the two together..open...there is that "out of tune" wobble. I don't get it. If both strings read right on when open, then play them both and they are not "in tune" together. Guess I'm gonna have to take it to a tech. But, I've learned alot about intonation.......thanks guys.