A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

[octavedoctor]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

If you are using a locking nut (technically called a nut clamp but rarely used for obvious reasons ) then a lot of what has been said here about compliance isn't relevant.

The values I arrived at are as follows

C - 0.130
F - 0.095
Bb - 0.065
Eb - 0.045
Ab - 0.035
C# - 0.025
F3 - 0.018
Bb - 0.013

But you could legitimately substitute heavier gauges in the F, Bb', Eb, Ab and C# positions as the strings will have more compliance with the nut unlocked, so i think your choices seem pretty good. But with the nut locked the compliance created by the headstock harp becomes almost irrelevant; then the lighter gauges might produce less of a "step" between strings.

Will you have problems? Let me put it this way; I have thirty years of experience of guitar making and repair. Even i would be reluctant to tackle an engineering project of this complexity. I'd like to know where you are going to get the bits...

Best of luck, you are very ambitious, i hope you'll, come back and post the result.

[Chewbacca]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

Well, thanks for the tips, man! I reckon that I will take more than 7 years to build it -I'm considering have Michael Sherman build it for me (there's the cost issue though...)
I'm planning to use Schaller tuners (M4 for the bass and GT2 for the guitar). Right now, I'm having problems with the bridge, regular 8 string trems won't fit it - I'm trying to get a custom built one from Hipshot.
It's going to have neck through construction and flat top. Right now, I'm learning a lot about woods. Huffschmid (Black Droid guitars) explains on his homepage that chosing wood is way more complex than just getting mahogany, maple or walnut and simply putting them together. There's tons of variations of the same wood, each one with it's own tonal properties. So I'm doing a lot of research in order to get it right.
The pups are going to be custom SD's -SH2 Jazz and TB 6 Duncan Distortion.
The idea for this guitar was to get that low tuning with easy-to-get stainless stell strings (I love that single string system from Ernie Ball).

[Chad]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

Chad this is a very, very good post. Outstanding in fact; one of the best I have ever seen on this forum. You have clearly thought far more about this than the "average Joe" you claim to be.

There is so much BS talked about strings and tension it's nice to see someone who actually gives it some thought and comes to a reasoned conclusion rather than jumping the gun and making assumptions based on faulty reasoning.

The only thing I might take issue on is the effect of break angle, which I don't think has the effect you ascribe to it but then this might be a matter of "perception" rather than measurable effect. Or as William James might have put it -

"Whilst part of what we perceive comes through our senses from the object before us, another part (and it may be the larger part) always comes out of our own mind."
— William James (The Principles of Psychology)

This should go to the vault, really, it's a valuable reference.

I'm way late replying to that, but thanks man. I guess I need to check back on this thread more often.

The easiest way to feel the effects of break angle is to crank down the tailpiece on a Les Paul with a neck angle that really creates a steep angle with the bridge. Play that for awhile. Then top wrap the bridge with the exact same brand/model/gauge strings. The difference is very noticeable to me.

[Chad]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

Just read the rest of this. Appears you all have taken the ball and ran with it.

Thanks for all of the compliments and I'm glad this thread has been helpful.

[octavedoctor]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

I'm way late replying to that, but thanks man. I guess I need to check back on this thread more often.

The easiest way to feel the effects of break angle is to crank down the tailpiece on a Les Paul with a neck angle that really creates a steep angle with the bridge. Play that for awhile. Then top wrap the bridge with the exact same brand/model/gauge strings. The difference is very noticeable to me.

I think actually that you are right about that, but I don't think it has anything to do with break angle. Top wrapping creates a slight increase in compliance because you are increasing the length of the string between the ball and the saddle point.

Increasing the break angle may increase the friction at the saddle point slightly, the effect of which may be to decrease compliance very slightly during transient bends but this effect would be very slight, effectively just slowing down the rate at which the tension either side of the saddle reaches equilibrium.

Tension is an absolute; it will be uniform along the length of the string between anchor points. If it were affected by break angle it would be impossible to tune a Lute, for example, as the break angle at the nut is nearly 90 degrees.

This ain't me talking; it's the laws of physics. I'll be happy to concede the point to anyone who can produce evidence to the contrary...

[Chad]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

I think actually that you are right about that, but I don't think it has anything to do with break angle. Top wrapping creates a slight increase in compliance because you are increasing the length of the string between the ball and the saddle point.

Increasing the break angle may increase the friction at the saddle point slightly, the effect of which may be to decrease compliance very slightly during transient bends but this effect would be very slight, effectively just slowing down the rate at which the tension either side of the saddle reaches equilibrium.

I think it's a combination of break angle AND compliance from a change in string length. Of the two factors, I think break angle would be contributing more because the change in string length is very slight.

The change in friction at the saddle point is more than slight. The difference is great enough to mean the difference between a bridge collapsing or not.

Tension is an absolute; it will be uniform along the length of the string between anchor points. If it were affected by break angle it would be impossible to tune a Lute, for example, as the break angle at the nut is nearly 90 degrees.

This ain't me talking; it's the laws of physics. I'll be happy to concede the point to anyone who can produce evidence to the contrary...

Measurable tension will not be affected by break angle because break angle is a perceived tension factor. That is a fundamental of this discussion.

I'm not well versed on lutes, but I did check Wiki and it says this:

"The pegbox for lutes before the Baroque era was angled back from the neck at almost 90° (see image), presumably to help hold the low-tension strings firmly against the nut, which is not traditionally glued in place, but is held in place by string pressure only."

That is a perfect illustration of the effect on the friction point. They countered low mass strings with an extremely steep break angle. The break angle effectively reduced compliance. I guarantee if you played a lute with a straight pegbox and another with a 90 degree pegbox, the latter would play tighter with all else constant. A big part of this phenomenon depends on how easy a string slides through the nut and/or bridge. With a steeper break angle, there is more pressure on the friction point and string slide will be impeded therefore the strings will be less compliant and will play tighter.

[Chad]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

Some fodder for further discussion:

• I have a guitar with a double locking Floyd Rose tremolo bridge The bridge is currently blocked (via a Tremol-No) and is immobile. With that type of setup, the number of perceived tension factors are greatly reduced.

Question: on said guitar, if you bend a note a whole step at the 12th fret, then bend a whole step at the 2nd fret, why does it take more pressure, yet less vertical movement with the 2nd fret bend?

• From a discussion in another thread on this board, I came to realize that every time a note is fretted, the scale length changes. To clarify, scale length and speaking length are congruent terms therefore when a note is fretted the speaking length has changed, which means the scale length has changed. So the scale length of a guitar is constantly changing as a player navigates the fretboard.

Question: since scale length is a measurable tension factor, is the measurable tension of a guitar constantly changing as a guitar is played?

[Realmrocks]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/Strings.htm

Not sure if this discussion still going or if this was ever brought up but see this link. I bought my custom guitar from him and now buy strings as he makes complete sense re String Tension.

When I started reading thread I immediatley thought of Alex (maker of ZOG strings). He is rough with words but he is forward thinker. Ed

[Chad]

Re: A fresh look at choosing string gauges: real and perceived tension [LONG THREAD]

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/Strings.htm

Not sure if this discussion still going or if this was ever brought up but see this link. I bought my custom guitar from him and now buy strings as he makes complete sense re String Tension.

When I started reading thread I immediatley thought of Alex (maker of ZOG strings). He is rough with words but he is forward thinker. Ed

Yeah, I'm aware of that website and his "info" on string tension. I'll just say that his ideas on the subject are very narrow. To say that measurable tension is all that matters is off the mark. See FAQ #8 above. Plus, his communication method is totally ridiculous, insulting, etc. Honestly, I wouldn't use his strings if he gave them to me for free.

BTW, in the past I have emailed him and given links to this thread asking for his input, but I am yet to get an email reply or response in the thread.