True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

[IanBallard]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Interesting. I have a cheap acoustic that only stays in tune and sounds intonated in open-D tuning.

[John_L]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Most American guitars were made for open tunings as that is what people used. A lot of the old blues and jazz stuff is in open or e-flat. It was really only the British Blues bands of the 60's who started to play that sort of music in classical tuning because they didn't know any better. Keef paints this out in his book, he spent ages trying to play those old songs in classical tuning as he, and all the others, assumed that all guitars were tuned 'properly' it was only later when he met the old blues players he realised that they used all sorts of tunings. But the generation who came after that those who were influenced by the Beatles and so on used classical tuning and it became standardised in popular music.

[Gearjoneser]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Can you imagine how tired you'd be of talking about frets, temperment, and explaining your guitar every time you pulled it out of it's case somewhere?

It looks like someone dragged a sledge hammer along the neck.

[IanBallard]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Most American guitars were made for open tunings as that is what people used. A lot of the old blues and jazz stuff is in open or e-flat. It was really only the British Blues bands of the 60's who started to play that sort of music in classical tuning because they didn't know any better. Keef paints this out in his book, he spent ages trying to play those old songs in classical tuning as he, and all the others, assumed that all guitars were tuned 'properly' it was only later when he met the old blues players he realised that they used all sorts of tunings. But the generation who came after that those who were influenced by the Beatles and so on used classical tuning and it became standardised in popular music.

Also, due to erratic tape machines and playback limitations, the relative pitch on records used to be notoriously wrong, in terms of what was actually heard coming into the recording booth vs. what came out of the speakers of your record player. Lots of Beatles records, even before the LSD studio-jackery period, were pitch incorrect anyway. Lots of people would tune to the records and of course, that caused a lot of issues right there.

[John_L]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Also, due to erratic tape machines and playback limitations, the relative pitch on records used to be notoriously wrong, in terms of what was actually heard coming into the recording booth vs. what came out of the speakers of your record player. Lots of Beatles records, even before the LSD studio-jackery period, were pitch incorrect anyway. Lots of people would tune to the records and of course, that caused a lot of issues right there.

The most famous incident of that in recent years is the 'Randy Rhodes Tribute' album. Loads of people thought Randy dropped down to a D for some songs. He didn't what happened was some songs came from a radio broadcast where the tape speed was off.
A lot of record players had a sliding speed control. So you could be a little fast or slow of the speed marked.

[GoldenVulture]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Record makers used to literally speed up tracks, not enough to be too obvious, so they were a little bit shorter and then they could fit more on a record. Once they got over around 35 mins of music, the record quality would be sacrificed for any extra time. The way to get the extra time was to place the grooves closer together which results in a poorer quality response.[ less depth and width ] Speeding up tracks was a way around this. For this reason tunings on vinyl disks can vary from track to track by quarter tones or less and none be at the same tuning/pitch.

It is pure havoc if you're trying to play along.

[GoldenVulture]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Originally Posted by IanBallard : Not to get on a tangent, but the tempered scale we use today, based on the WWII era meddling, is inherently flawed to my ear and sounds weird. This might be one reason, of many, why some of the best guitar players tuned a half-step down. It just simply resonated better to their ear and made them feel better. So a set intonation, designed around A=440 is of little interest to me for that reason. Sure, you could detune to E flat, but it won't be quite right, unless they have a version designed around that tuning

The tempered scale is mathematically correct. Unfortunately most instruments are nonlinear and can't reproduce that scale as correctly.

I use The A440 based tuning for convenience, but I also do tune to the equivalent of A446. I got this reference point from a Piano I own It is over 100 years old, from the era when there was no standardised tuning.
It has a pair of candlestick holders with it that have tuned dishes [ like a small bell ]. They are the tuning refence for a piano tuner. One is an E and the other an Eb.[ The closest to the tempered scale ] Tuning to these the A = 446 hz.

If I tune my acoustic to this, It resonates better and all chords Will play in tune. [ E,A D C at the nut end and bar chords etc up the 10- 12th fret area.] This tuning just works better on a non linear instrument.

[TeleLubber]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Can you imagine how tired you'd be of talking about frets, temperment, and explaining your guitar every time you pulled it out of it's case somewhere?

It looks like someone dragged a sledge hammer along the neck.

"Dude.. I left it next to the fireplace and it melted man.."

My concern would be how strange it would feel doing bends, not to mention the weird tones it would produce.. knowing Vai, he will likely exploit this into another one of his whiz-bang noises from Mars tricks.

[John_L]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

Record makers used to literally speed up tracks, not enough to be too obvious, so they were a little bit shorter and then they could fit more on a record. Once they got over around 35 mins of music, the record quality would be sacrificed for any extra time. The way to get the extra time was to place the grooves closer together which results in a poorer quality response.[ less depth and width ] Speeding up tracks was a way around this. For this reason tunings on vinyl disks can vary from track to track by quarter tones or less and none be at the same tuning/pitch.

It is pure havoc if you're trying to play along.

This has been fixed by the remastering onto CD. It's a big issue with Jazz records where side long tracks were shrunk like that. Commercial radio stations also do this so they can fit songs in the adverts.

[TeleLubber]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

I always wondered about this.. use to drive me crazy. Are u sure about them fixing this when they remastered to CD? I was playing "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" along with Jeff Beck today.. and my tuner was reading A 445.. I remember the record being slightly sharp too..

[Johtosotku]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

How good do tunings like this sound in a band where the other guitar or bass doesn't use a similar system?

[GoldenVulture]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

I always wondered about this.. use to drive me crazy. Are u sure about them fixing this when they remastered to CD? I was playing "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" along with Jeff Beck today.. and my tuner was reading A 445.. I remember the record being slightly sharp too..

My guess is, some have been fixed, others remain as they were. It probaly depends on the remastering and how much time and money was spent doing it.

I find playing along with TV sound, once again it can vary wildly, no matter that we have didgital time coding on just about everything these days.
Tracks can be sped up without changing pitch, these days. The wonders of DSP.

[John_L]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

I always wondered about this.. use to drive me crazy. Are u sure about them fixing this when they remastered to CD? I was playing "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" along with Jeff Beck today.. and my tuner was reading A 445.. I remember the record being slightly sharp too..

It depends on the remastering. I know that Columbia Jazz go to great lengths with this as it is i the notes for the Miles Davis reissues.
According to the notes with my box set of 'Beckology' it was remasterd with CEDAR which is normally used for old radio shows and things like that so perhaps not. Also Beck was remasterd early on as he had some high charting work in the late 80's I know that the current versions from Columbia (including Cash and Dylan) are the second generation of remastering having been done once in the 80's but now being done again with new technology.

[John_L]

Re: True Temperament Fretting System (for perfect intonation)

I find playing along with TV sound, once again it can vary wildly, no matter that we have didgital time coding on just about everything these days.
Tracks can be sped up without changing pitch, these days. The wonders of DSP.

Well they have to fit in more adverts all the time...