What's the deal with Blackmachines?

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Can anyone answer the question I posed in an earlier post - They don't actually sell new for over 10 grand, do they? Because it seems like those are used prices to me, and I don't understand why people would get butthurt over a builder charging that much when he's actually not.

[SteveAtkinson]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

No woodworker or luthier I have ever met wastes materials. Until I hear it from the guy who does it, it is BS. It still smells of an 'internet sensation' business model. And from what I've seen, many people can buy a lot more guitar for a lot less.

Carvin puts their guitars through a bandsaw if they don't make it through quality check (I've seen video of this, though I can't find it quickly, so I apologize for not sharing). While the fire might be a bit sensationalist, it's completely realistic that, in order to preserve their reputation for putting out exclusively perfect merchandise, brands will compeltely destroy duds.

The question is what degree of imperfection constitutes a "dud". It only makes sense that someone (single builder or company) has to have the highest standards out there. I'm not saying it's Doug (I've never seen a BM in real life), but I'd just like to meet your skepticism with some of my own.

[SteveAtkinson]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

So that's where the cost is coming from? Us reimbursing him for the expensive materials he decides to destroy when one little thing is flawed? Does this sound stupid to anyone else?

I seem to remember reading someone saying that Doug quoted him 1500 GBP for a build.

The $15k price tags we're currently seeing aren't being sold directly from Doug; they're used BMs. Given that it doesn't seem possible to buy a BM from Doug himself as of now, I guess that there isn't any truly relevant data on this matter.

Is there anyone around who can relay what BMs sold for when bought directly from Doug?

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Carvin puts their guitars through a bandsaw if they don't make it through quality check (I've seen video of this, though I can't find it quickly, so I apologize for not sharing). While the fire might be a bit sensationalist, it's completely realistic that, in order to preserve their reputation for putting out exclusively perfect merchandise, brands will compeltely destroy duds.

Ernie Ball also disposes of any guitars that someone like Gibson would sell as standards.

I doubt that Doug would toss a fully assembled guitar. If it happened once (perhaps out of sheer frustration or something similar) I could understand it. But even if he'd only destroyed a couple of complete but imperfect guitars he'd be out perfectly good hardware. Nobody that can make an instrument that fine is that stupid. (Unless he does it so he can say he did it to add to his mystique)

[SteveAtkinson]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Can anyone answer the question I posed in an earlier post - They don't actually sell new for over 10 grand, do they? Because it seems like those are used prices to me, and I don't understand why people would get butthurt over a builder charging that much when he's actually not.

They don't sell new.

http://www.blackmachine.net/ordering.htm

[SteveAtkinson]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

For say a fender usa strat if I was to make one from like warmoth or something.
200 for an alder body
150 for the fender fat 50s pickups
Even without the neck, hardware and other electeonics that is already a third of the price. Warmoth is by no means a DEAL either, but if I were to use it to replicate whatever It would likely be MORE expensive.

Warmoth has its own markups.
$200 for an alder body from Warmoth -> between $10 and $100 to buy the Alder from a lumber supplier, depending upon quantity and quality (3-piece, 1-piece, paint grade, etc); finishing supplies are very cheap when done in bulk (as Warmoth does).
$150 pickups -> Less than $30 for the materials.

The bottom line is that the ~3x markup that is carried on a Guitar Center guitar is very real. I've sourced materials myself and have seen how I can get the materials to build something on par with a PRS for ~$600 without any bulk discounts (I'll stay quiet on whether I possess the ability to build to that level yet!) Alternatively, if you can find someone who deals with the wholesale prices, you can get a glimpse of the pricing that still yields a profit for Fender even after materials and labor are factored in.

[Mincer]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Carvin puts their guitars through a bandsaw if they don't make it through quality check (I've seen video of this, though I can't find it quickly, so I apologize for not sharing). While the fire might be a bit sensationalist, it's completely realistic that, in order to preserve their reputation for putting out exclusively perfect merchandise, brands will compeltely destroy duds.

The question is what degree of imperfection constitutes a "dud". It only makes sense that someone (single builder or company) has to have the highest standards out there. I'm not saying it's Doug (I've never seen a BM in real life), but I'd just like to meet your skepticism with some of my own.

They may bandsaw the wood, but not the hardware, and I would bet there is some recycling going on. I don't doubt he has high standards- but I doubt anyone is burning perfectly good pickups, bridges and tuners.

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

They don't sell new.

http://www.blackmachine.net/ordering.htm

They did at one point, though.

[Pierre]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I did answer your post and Blackmachines are STILL being built (I believe Doug retired due to health reasons); Feline guitars handles official production of the B6s and they cost £2.3k new, which is the cost of a decent PRS or high-end Gibson in the UK and just about the cost of a low-end Fender Custom shop.

I don't know how much they cost when BM was building them but based on feedback so far it was no different from what Feline is charging.

[Big Flannel]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

2.3k I can understand. Everybody prefers different guitars for different reasons. I think we all agree that the used price is what's crazy

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I did answer your post and Blackmachines are STILL being built (I believe Doug retired due to health reasons); Feline guitars handles official production of the B6s and they cost £2.3k new, which is the cost of a decent PRS or high-end Gibson in the UK and just about the cost of a low-end Fender Custom shop.

I don't know how much they cost when BM was building them but based on feedback so far it was no different from what Feline is charging.

My bad, I glossed over your post.

However, I am more interested in how much Doug sold the Blackmachine guitars he made before Feline for.

[Pierre]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I just did some research and it appears BM charged the same as Feline is charging; £2.3k for a B7 (7 strings version). May seem cheaper but this was back in 2008 so prices would likely have gone up since then.

UK prices include VAT (just found out this doesn't exist in the US!) and is very, very reasonable for a custom guitar (I have one in the works with Waghorn for just a little bit more), regardless of bolt-on, not handmade hardware etc...

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Warmoth has its own markups.
$200 for an alder body from Warmoth -> between $10 and $100 to buy the Alder from a lumber supplier, depending upon quantity and quality (3-piece, 1-piece, paint grade, etc); finishing supplies are very cheap when done in bulk (as Warmoth does).
$150 pickups -> Less than $30 for the materials.

The bottom line is that the ~3x markup that is carried on a Guitar Center guitar is very real. I've sourced materials myself and have seen how I can get the materials to build something on par with a PRS for ~$600 without any bulk discounts (I'll stay quiet on whether I possess the ability to build to that level yet!) Alternatively, if you can find someone who deals with the wholesale prices, you can get a glimpse of the pricing that still yields a profit for Fender even after materials and labor are factored in.

I know, I am saying that WITH warmoth's mark ups, I woyld still save money if I overpaid a luthier and went through him/her and did it twice.

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Ok so let me get this straight, the Blackmachines being made today are with Doug and Feline guitars and they have the much more reasonable price of like $2,500. The absurd prices people are hearing about are USED models that are very limited and rare, and Blackmachine doesn't really make them anymore and they only cost that much because it is what the buyer and seller agree upon privately. And he may destroy dud instruments he will do so conservatively and will salvage useful parts still because he is not insane. This is starting to make a lot more sense to me.

[youngthrasher9]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

In the end, all the huge price tag on boutique built guitars buys you a guitar built by someone with more experience.

You can buy a used Music Man guitar, your own pickups, and a crazy thorough setup for less than $2500, and that would be a ****ing joy to play.