A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I could write out a long syllabus of reasonable methods and concerns to be considered in such testing, but it would be longer than I could reasonably start on tonight. Perhaps tomorrow.

I'll quickly loose interest in continued discussion here if this thread goes anything like the prior though. So, if your comment does not focus on contributions of value to the original topic (specifics of test procedures), please don't post it here. Start another thread for gripes, keep this one clean, and maybe it will lead somewhere productive.

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

For this test, the question is basically "does wood matter at all?", so I'm not necessarily trying to profile the response of a species of wood, so I shouldn't have to worry about how representative a sample is of that species, or how much sap or mositure is in the wood, what part of the tree it came from, how many samples are tested, etc, because all that would matter is that there is or is not a difference.

I'm open to using a noise generator and a microphone or piezo or something, but since the practical application is guitar, I'd think a string and a pickup would satisfy the "problem domain".

I agree. While a signal generator and driver certainly has value in testing (I use these in testing, though more often with sweep than noise), I do believe that strings would be the most appropriate for this type of testing.

[DreX]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Lots of ways those questions could be answered - more than I could really bring myself to type at the moment. Much depends in the scope and extensiveness of the test, and how thorough and comprehensive you want the results to be.

Where are you located at? I'd love to collaborate with others on a test of this type. We should talk some time.

That would be awesome, unfortunately we're almost on opposite sides of the country. I'm just curious to find out if wood matters at all, because I've thought it did, and I wonder if I was just fooling myself and blaming the wood when in reality it was something else.

I hope you find the time to do a test, you've got the shop and camera setup and the Youtube channel and electronic/audio measuring equipment, you're almost done before you've even begun.

[Jeffblue]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

So redundant a subject. What.....nearly 70 years of electric solid body guitar engineering and the science trolls want to re-invent the wheel. Reading about the properties of tonewoods, actually tapping and listening for resonance, we already have what our ears tell us so what would be the point of spending multi-thousands of dollars to do research of already pleasing tones? Mojo is what it is and over-thinking it isn't going to change the recordings that are milestone. No matter what the outcome of ANY scientific study is going to change how the big guitar manufacturers do business. Here's how I see it...........science wasn't what got Leo Fender involved in amplifier and guitar making..........it was trial and error and using his' ear. So you think Les Paul used scientific protocol to achieve multi-tracking or was it that he had an idea an how to blend the same voice and different guitar parts onto one track? Isn't it the sound waves we listen to with our ears while we pluck the strings and enjoy the tone? You need a visual display to satisfy your tone nirvana? Nonsense.

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

It's a shame we're so far apart. This type of project can be much more palatable when work can be shared by collaboration.

It does get complicated though. With nearly every step you take to simplify, there are almost inevitably some opportunities for influence in the outcome being missed. I course a line has to be drawn some here for "good enough", but if too many corners are cut, confidence in the results can quickly drop so low that you're left to wonder whether it was worth doing to begin with.

[beaubrummels]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

For this test, the question is basically "does wood matter at all?", so I'm not necessarily trying to profile the response of a species of wood, so I shouldn't have to worry about how representative a sample is of that species, or how much sap or mositure is in the wood, what part of the tree it came from, how many samples are tested, etc, because all that would matter is that there is or is not a difference.

I'm open to using a noise generator and a microphone or piezo or something, but since the practical application is guitar, I'd think a string and a pickup would satisfy the "problem domain".

If all you want to answer is if the wood contributes any difference, just take your pickguard assembly out of one Strat, wholesale, and slap it into a different Strat that has different body wood but the same hardware. If you hear a difference, I would consider that compelling evidence that the wood contributed to the difference.

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

If all you want to answer is if the wood contributes any difference, just take your pickguard assembly out of one Strat, wholesale, and slap it into a different Strat that has different body wood but the same hardware. If you hear a difference, I would consider that compelling evidence that the wood contributed to the difference.

Would be nice if it were so simple, but maintaining ideal controls and objective appraisal with this type of comparison becomes much more challenging than most may think.

[DreX]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

It does get complicated though. With nearly every step you take to simplify, there are almost inevitably some opportunities for influence in the outcome being missed. I course a line has to be drawn some here for "good enough", but if too many corners are cut, confidence in the results can quickly drop so low that you're left to wonder whether it was worth doing to begin with.

Hypothetically or otherwise, how does someone say the test was invalid because there wasn't enough extraneous elements, such as frets or a specific body shape? Would they claim that these elements alter the wood's ability to behave like wood?

[DarkMatter]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

David is right. No more shenanigans from me. I'd genuinely like to see something come of this. Everyone, let us science types indulge ourselves here.

[DreX]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

If all you want to answer is if the wood contributes any difference, just take your pickguard assembly out of one Strat, wholesale, and slap it into a different Strat that has different body wood but the same hardware. If you hear a difference, I would consider that compelling evidence that the wood contributed to the difference.

I'll measure and record the difference, but just listening wouldn't be objective enough, even for my own uses. I think I hear a difference when I swap pickups between otherwise identical basswood Strats, but maybe it's literally the fact that they're different colors that makes me think they sounded different.

I think setting up a simpler test with disposable wood boards is about as much work as swapping all the hardware on a Strat, so I'd rather go with the "cleaner" of the two test setups, unless there some reason the believe the wood only behaves properly when cut in the shape of a guitar and has all the associated accoutrements attached to it. I gotta be honest, a more complicated setup could break my time budget (or the amount Im willing to spend to answer this question), hence the reason for my questions.

[David Collins]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Hypothetically or otherwise, how does someone say the test was invalid because there wasn't enough extraneous elements, such as frets or a specific body shape? Would they claim that these elements alter the wood's ability to behave like wood?

Reliable tests could certainly be done without a complete instrument (frets, truss rod, etc). A monochord setup would likely be perfectly suitable. The biggest challenges tend to come with reliable drive and observation techniques. There are a lot of ways this can go, and when vetting your methods, many would be surprised just how challengng it can be to get consistent results with the same sample on subsequent tests. When your testing is comparitive, this stage of proving your methods is never so easy as it may seem.

I'm currently doing some tests on fret wire, primarily focused on wear rates of different materials and different treatments, but also getting in to concerns on tonal effect (which I am not terribly optimistic of finding). Over the last two months I have run millions of cycles on my test apparatus just to work out the bugs and refine it to a point where I can be confident that results are identical on subsequent tests of the same wire. It always seems simple, but once you get in to evaluating and refining reliability of methods, it never is.

I may take on a study of this sort later in the year, but doubt any sooner.

[Tonewoods]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

Would be nice if it were so simple, but maintaining ideal controls and objective appraisal with this type of comparison becomes much more challenging than most may think.

Blinding is non-negotiable.
There's also the bottomless 'variable rabbit hole' that tonewood believers tend to use as a crutch when their beliefs are called out in practical terms. In their demands, they usually just wind up demonstrating how little they understand about science (blood pressure? LMAO)

If you're interested in the theoretical, Will Gelvin did some very decent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJfeFe4CKEk - Tonewood Riff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7tcVVt3OrM - How pickups work (he has patents on pickups)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehgl-AeDPkQ - Resonant frequency / anm actual sig generator

If you want to simplify it, here's a guy offering a free blind challenge in a random blind test. He posted it yesterday'ish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjHt9IqDmIA

If attack subsumes tonewood as a operational variable, then the tonewood believer narrative just took a huge dump.

If you want to get into setting up an efficacious test to duplicate conditions that isolate tonewood as a concept completely away from its interplay with the instrument, we first have to establish the question we want to answer in its simplest and clearest terms.

[DarkMatter]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I feel that on an electric, the body has a very small effect, but the neck could potentially have a noticeable effect. What about having a test body that stays the same and then you just swap necks?

[Tonewoods]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

I feel that on an electric, the body has a very small effect, but the neck could potentially have a noticeable effect. What about having a test body that stays the same and then you just swap necks?

That would be a good way to approach testing the neck.
The key, of course, is blinding. In the realm of subtlety and 'perception', people will hear what they want.

[DarkMatter]

Re: A few specific questions about testing wood influence on tone

That would be a good way to approach testing the neck.
The key, of course, is blinding. In the realm of subtlety and 'perception', people will hear what they want.

I agree that without eliminating the perception factor, testing becomes pointless.