Accurate Generalization?

[Silence Kid]

Louder un-plugged guitar = greater string vibration (duration/amt.)
Greater string vibration = need for higher relief/overall action

...So a plywood body & zinc floyd guitar, all other things equal, can accept lower action than a hollow-body non-vibrato. Am I far off-base?

[AlexR]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

A long way I feel.

Acoustic tone is about the body vibrating the surrounding air as much as (if not more than) the strings. Plus the strings rely on the structure of the body for anchoring and 'solidity'. Sometimes a more solid guitar can ring out more even though what the pickup senses is similar.
Then add in that certain frequencies are better at travelling through the air than others, so a guitar that produces strongly in that frequency range might seem louder.

Setup is what determines action.....any guitar can be set up with killer low action given a skilled operator.
Shred/metal guitars not only typically get low setups due to the fact that adds to speed, but that typical pickups/amp setups have more inherent compressive natures. If you were setting up say a jazz/blues guitar you would hear the dampened notes with an ultra low setup due to the clarity of typical pickup + rig.

[Chistopher]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

Louder un-plugged guitar = greater string vibration (duration/amt.)
Greater string vibration = need for higher relief/overall action

...So a plywood body & zinc floyd guitar, all other things equal, can accept lower action than a hollow-body non-vibrato. Am I far off-base?

This is an interesting question. It makes sense that an acoustically louder guitar would be louder electrically, but in my experience it doesn't always correlate. I had an arched back accoustic with a Broadcaster bridge pickup and it was fairly quiet. I put the same pickup in my McCawber Tele which was acoustically quiet and it was louder. Whatever affect the body plays is minor in comparison to the particular strength of magnetism in the strings.

[PierceOkken]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

The overall volume of the guitar is mostly from the type of pickup instaled in the guitar, this is an extension of the tonewood debate, I will acknowledge that wood plays a part in tone, but not as much as it is hyped up to be.

[Silence Kid]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

I think the interesting thing to consider is whether acoustic loudness comes more from the insrument's strings or the resonance of the body. Off-hand it's easy to think that playing a guitar that's quiter un-plugged might sound much like playing an acoustically louder version of the same guitar but picking softer (knowing that affecting picking dynamics has as much an affect on overall loudness as pickup selection.)

If the string vibration range is actually constant between louder/quieter guitars, then one could conclude that 1- greater loudness would not need to be adjusted for in setup and 2- the pickups would be equally loud regardless of the unplugged volume, since (to my weak understanding) a pickup basically cares about the distance a sting travels.

My lean is to think the actual generation of unplugged sound comes more from the string than the body; as I visualize it, a string between two nails stuck in concrete still makes sound without any "body" vibrating. But maybe I'm still neglecting something.

[Chistopher]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

A large part of the tonewood debate is based upon how much of the signal from a guitar that the wood either absorbs or reflects back onto the strings. Regardless of how large this effect is, don't you think that the source of the vibration would have a larger affect on it's own volume than the thing upon which it is attached?

That's a rhetorical question by the way, if you answer it we risk sparking tone war debates.

[Silence Kid]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

In a pragmatic sense, some guitars (including those built of same/different tone woods) do sound louder than others Wondering what impact that fact has, as much as where that effect comes from.

[ibanezrocks]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

Louder un-plugged guitar = greater string vibration (duration/amt.)
Greater string vibration = need for higher relief/overall action

...So a plywood body & zinc floyd guitar, all other things equal, can accept lower action than a hollow-body non-vibrato. Am I far off-base?

Almost completely off base. Next time you're playing unplugged try pressing the end of the headstock into the wall or a cabinet or something and see how loud it gets. Proof that the body is resonating and producing sound, not just the strings. The strings move very little air themselves but the top of the guitar is like a big speaker (think of an acoustic - a thinner but stiffer top makes a better speaker, conversely a thick heavy slab of mahogany might be quiet acoustically but sustain well electrically).

Some guitars will resonate more acoustically and it'll have nothing to do with how low the action could be. Whether or not there's a trem, the thickness of the finish, the stiffness and acoustic coupling of the neck joint are all big factors.

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[Chistopher]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

Almost completely off base. Next time you're playing unplugged try pressing the end of the headstock into the wall or a cabinet or something and see how loud it gets. Proof that the body is resonating and producing sound, not just the strings. The strings move very little air themselves but the top of the guitar is like a big speaker.

That's true if you play with a microphone or piezoelectric pickup, but in practice resonance has little effect on volume in comparison to other factors. In order, the most important factors on volume are string gauge and composition, pickup output and distance from string, saddle and fret hardness, and then all the wood voodoo follows. Pressing the headstock against to the point where that experiment works also affects the tuning to the point where that has an unaccounted affect. Trying the same thing with the body of the guitar (which is more accurate) has a much less pronounced effect.

...the thickness of the finish...

Don't forget how big a role the color plays as well.

[dave74]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

It all matters some IMO, but not to the action/relief settings.

[Discharged]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

Greater string vibration = need for higher relief/overall action. Am I far off-base?

No, that's not the case.

/Peter

[ibanezrocks]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

That's true if you play with a microphone or piezoelectric pickup, but in practice resonance has little effect on volume in comparison to other factors. In order, the most important factors on volume are string gauge and composition, pickup output and distance from string, saddle and fret hardness, and then all the wood voodoo follows. Pressing the headstock against to the point where that experiment works also affects the tuning to the point where that has an unaccounted affect. Trying the same thing with the body of the guitar (which is more accurate) has a much less pronounced effect.



Don't forget how big a role the color plays as well.

You were talking about loudness unplugged, which is what my post addresses.

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[Chistopher]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

You were talking about loudness unplugged, which is what my post addresses.

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I know, I wasn't saying you were wrong, I was just transferring your principles to the guitar when it is electrified. And the joke at the end was more of a poke at these kinds of people:

http://www.mother-of-tone.com/lacquer.htm

[Clint 55]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

^ Shlacking does affect the ampd sound. Ekspecially when compared to a non shlacked. I play an unfinished neck for this reason. It's really easy to tell the effect the acoustic qualities have on ampd sound. I don't know why you're all cynical about everything.

[Chistopher]

Re: Accurate Generalization?

I wasn't saying it didn't, but if you read the article it's just some guy ranting about how any amount of plastic on a guitar (even the pickguard) will completely ruin it, regardless of the players musical taste or preference.

The fella in the article does an experiment where he turns a crappy Squier into a tone monster merely by changing the finish.