Mixing OFR, Schaller, and Gotoh parts--does it work?

[Inflames626]

Hi everyone,
This is my first post on the forum in many years. I hope everyone is well.

I am trying to retrofit new hardware on an older import guitar. I thought I would post my thoughts here. I am not sure if the small differences in measurement will matter but, if they do, I would appreciate you guys letting me know.

I am swapping out the hardware on a 1996 Jackson Kelly Professional--a mid priced guitar that was made in Japan. It uses the Jackson JT580LP bridge, also called the TRS-101 and made by Takeuchi.

I stick with upgrading imported Jacksons, especially Kellys, because I prefer bolt ons and to my knowledge most USA/upper range Kellys are neck throughs. Everything else is bolt on with cheaper hardware.

However, as you all know, upgrading a licensed bridge can be a trial and error process.

I have made several observations about the JT580LP bridge:

1) In design, it is like a Floyd Rose Pro in that there are no saddle bolts sticking out the back. It is slightly wider than an OFR bridge. However, it is shorter front to back than an OFR.

If I need to retrofit a bridge, I think a Schaller (non-Lockmeister) bridge would be my best bet, especially if the guitar is detuned and the saddles have to be moved back to intonate it properly.

2) Jackson told me they use R3 nuts. The JT580LP nut measures 1.6875", the same as an R3 nut. However, in height it measures about .224" or 5.7 mm, which is closer to an R2 nut.

Floyd does make this size--it is called an R8. I do not think it is very common relative to R2-R3.

Schaller only makes R2-R3 nuts.

Gotoh nuts look closer in size to the R8--especially the GHL-2. However, it has a 400 mm radius compared to the 254 mm radius of the OFR.

Jackson neck radii tend to be 12"-16" compound.

Conclusions:

1) I would be best off using a Schaller (non-Lockmeister) trem if the guitar is going to be detuned because there will be more room for the saddle screws.

2) I would be best off using an OFR R8 nut so that I do not have to have the R3 nut ground down as I did with the R3 nut I tried (I did not know R8 existed then).

3) I am sticking with the original import posts/screws. They are narrower than the OFR/Schaller ones. The OFR I have tried so far has not been affected by the import screws save perhaps wiggling a bit more on the knife edges. I do not think this should not be an issue once everything is at playing tension.

4) Might there be an incompatibility between the Schaller bridge and OFR nut in terms of radius? I would think not since I have looked at schematics for both bridges and they appear to be the same aside from the Schaller being slightly smaller overall. Additionally the Schaller knife edges may be smaller in circumference due to the removable knife edges. This may work well with the smaller import screws.

Here are charts if you need them:

OFR: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/17...f?v=1629814484

Schaller: https://schaller.info/media/pdf/34/53/6c/TZ_1302.pdf

Thanks,
Aaron

[nexion218]

For starters... What's wrong with the 580LP you have? Just asking because if it's functioning properly, I wouldn't touch it, maybe add a brass sustain block instead of the pot metal one some of them came with (though if its the version that came with the Takeuchi logo on the block, it might not be pot metal all, can't remember) and then fuggetaboutit.

I was also looking into this possibility by the way a few years back, but never pulled trigger on it. It put me off big time that there would've been a swimming pool around the Floyd because if you look closely, the Floyd baseplate's part that sinks into the body recess is rectangular, while the 580LP has angled shoulders towards the fine tuners and a matching routing. I think I found pictures of this online, maybe on the jcfonline forum. If you google it I'm sure you'll find it.

For the nut I'd go with the one with the correct height and closest to the 12" starting radius of Jackson. The nut height can be adjusted by shimming or taking away wood. I definitely wouldn't do the latter at home. So unless you're a pro luthier, go with correct height and best possible radius. Besides, if you make the calculation, over those 2-3 cms the difference in curvature is so tiny between a 10" or 12" nut that I don't think I'd ever notice it.

The saddles' radius can be shimmed too and you can make shims from thicker soda cans, so no worries there.

As for the measurement mismatch... Well, it could or could not be a problem, can't tell. A wiggling knife edge spells tuning instability for me... There was a similar thread a few days ago where we mentioned that there is a difference between the Floyd and Gotoh pivot screw/bushing size, I believe someone said that he made a swap there was no malfunction.

And as always: I am not a pro, I just have a decent amount of experience based on which I usually assess these things correctly. But there are actual pros and /or more knowledgable guys on here and hopefully they'll chime in.too.

[nexion218]

Sorry, I can't edit my post, but I meant to say take away metal from the nut, not wood. Eithet way bad nut height severly affects intonationa nd playablility, so I still.wouldn't do it. Lol

[Inflames626]

Thanks for getting back with me Nexion218!

To answer your questions:

1) This was my first guitar. I played it a lot, especially when I was at GIT in 99-00.

The JT580LP on it is 25 years old. Also, the sustain block is zinc and it does not flutter when the bar is slapped. The saddle blocks have worn down so the strings slip. The nut clamps have grooves in them. It comes out of tune easily.

It can't handle doing a Slayer cover and remain in tune. Basically, it is worn out.

Things are better now than in the 90s. Floyd making their own stuff really helps. I think the FR Specials are a step up from old licensed bridges in terms of quality.

Still, I am not sure what parts will fit on a Special and what won't. The JT580LP tends to have smaller saddle blocks, etc., and I'm betting the Special is the same.

All that is supposed to be different on a Special is the saddles and the sustain block. I am not sure about the quality of the nut clamps. There is a reason the Special nuts are less expensive than the OFR ones and I bet it is because of cheaper metal in the Specials. The 1000s are much better and they use many Special parts. Still, I remain skeptical.

I look forward to solving these problems because if a Special is relatively easy to upgrade then a $200 guitar can be turned into a $500 guitar with $2000 guitar features ($180 for the new bridge and $120 or so for the pickups). If the Special bridge can be kept and just the saddles and block replaced it will cost even less.

I'm sorry but an American made Adrian Smith model is not worth the $2k-3k they are charging for it. I would rather build my own from an SDX model.

2) I did have to take the R3 OFR nut to a professional machine shop to have it ground down with a surface grinder. The metal in the FR nuts is very hard.

3) The Guitar Max guy on YouTube did upgrade a FR Special with titanium blocks. It's a possibility for me to put in at least OFR blocks and a new sustain block, but I think that would almost take as long as just putting on a new bridge. So why not just put in a higher quality bridge?

That video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz0QvFepH1Q

The only downside is I am used to the ease of motion of zinc blocks and the brighter tone. I don't really like the sound of a brass block--even a small one--and it makes the bar movement sluggish due to the increased weight.

However, a sustain block permits the bar to flutter (Slayer, Alexi Laiho, Andy LaRocque) and that is a trick I would prefer to use in my solos.

4) I don't think the knife blade on smaller screws thing will be an issue once the guitar is tuned to playing pitch. It does feel slightly unstable when the bridge is against the screws and there is no string tension. But, the bridge can't move side to side with 200 lbs. of force or so holding it against the bridge screws. The JT580LP does slip a bit now and then though because the edges are worn down.

I'm definitely not messing around with wood and putting in new posts.

5) Once I start buying guitars with FR Specials, I might be able to save a little money by upgrading the parts on them. But I'd rather just go with a better quality bridge to get rid of any weaknesses that might be there. I may try upgrading a FR Special though to see how it works. When I do, I will post results here.

6) Regarding the radii, if Jackson uses R3 then they are using nuts with a 10" radius on a guitar that starts at 12" and no one seems to notice. No shims are on them from the factory. So you may be onto something there about the radius difference not mattering.

How would I know how much to shim the saddles?

7) You're right about jcfonline, too. That's a great site for us Jackson lovers. There is a small gap around the OFR even in pre-Fender Jacksons. It's mildly unsightly but the bridge still works. I think a Schaller will fit better.

I keep this guitar in E/Eb so I don't think there would be a problem with an OFR. However, I have other Kellys in Db and C and I think those will need to be intonated quite a bit. I like to pull my bar up as well as down, so I think I will have to go with Schallers on the detuned Kellys. Otherwise the saddle screws will hit the wood on pull ups.

8) Herman Li did a very helpful video on Floyd Roses returning to zero. None of them, even Ibanez Edges, kept their tuning perfectly. They were always off by a few cents regardless of manufacturer.

That video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyzTJ-R89KI

Thanks.

[nexion218]

If you're looking to upgrade FR Special, the Floyd Rose branded parts will fit fine. Don't bother messing with the stringlock blocks though. The weak point of the Special is the saddles themselves, as those are potmetal. If the string lock screw is overtightened (9/10 guitarist do that, I used to be one of them), the string itself will put a dent in the softer potmetal of the saddles and eventually will cause slipping. Those fancy blocks would be nothing but snakeoil to your saddle problems. So if you have a guitar with a Special, get a set of German or 1000 series saddles and be happy. If you slap a better sustain block underneath it, I betcha you won't be able to tell it from and OFR based on performance. And don't be skeptical. The 1000 Series are Asian made as OEM parts, but in material and performance identical to the Germans. The German saddles are a bit more rounded at the edges but that's about it.

As for the flutter I'd first make sure that the bar sits tight and snug in its place. If it wiggles a bit, teflon tape will help. Then play around with the number and tension of springs. Trust me, a zinc block will flutter just fine. But if the energy of the slap if lost due to the bar wiggling in it's bushing instead of transferring movement to the baseplate or if your springs are barely streched, thus not storing energy to yank back the bridge when moved, no block will make it flutter. Sure a little extra weight helps, but I don't believe it to be the main enabler of flutters. You've also mentioned worn knives, which would also interfere with the free movement... Also, the main weight you're working against when using the bar are the string pull and the springs, not the weight of the block. Sure, when I once went from a small zinc to a solid brass thrice the size that I hadd custom made, yeah that changed the mechanics a bit, but that was not a great idea to beigin with... lol I couls barely fit that thing in the cavity of the guitar... lol

For measuring radii, a radius gauge is used. I've even seen downloadable versions which you can print cut out and use, if you don't wanna spend. Not even close to a real deal gauge precision made from metal, but for DIY purposes makes do.

[Obsessive Compulsive]

I don't know... I think mixing different parts to save cost is a dick move; my guitar is not a 20-dollar whore.

Yeah I remember the JT 580 LP, a copy of the low profile Floyd, similar to Ibanez Lo Pro Edge but this one is very very cheap feeling. I returned various Jackson Fusion to MF in the mid 90s cause the bridge was JT580LP. By contrast the JT590 is made by Schaller.

I had a similar case. The original bridge was a disgrace and to solve the issue I purchased an Original Edge bridge and had a tech fitted it to the guitar. He had to drill new holes for the post. It cost me more but the result was satisfying.

[alex1fly]

Mixing and matching parts has been successful for me maybe 30% of the time.