Where to run a boost in my chain?

[Ascension]

Run my time delay effects in the loop on all my amps but my Zinky Velvet. With that amp if I run a cable long enough to use my board on stage it kills the high end and sounds like you drop a blanket over the amp. Seems Brucie assumed players would run a rack effects rig with these amps and set the loop level very low. I need to push the levels up to run a Digital verb delay ect in the loop using pedals.
Question is where to stick the boost at the amp on the out to the board at the front of the board or at the end on the return from the board? Picked up an EP xotic today and plan to set it and never turn it off just to get my natural tone with effects in the loop and a longish cable run.
Both my Boogies I run with a 10 ft in and out from my board with no issues of high end loss and trying to get this with the velvet. Bruce wants $200 to mod the loop on my amp so--.

[mantis]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

I don't think you need a Boost per say but a Buffer is what I'm hearing you need. Pick up a tc electronics Bonafide Buffer and run it in front of your amp. It you have a Wah, put that first, if you have a Fuzz pedal also put that before the buffer. The buffer will greatly help with your issue. I'm having the same kind of issue right now which isn't a bad as what you say yours is but I noticed a drop in high's as well.
So the buffer can go in front of OD and distortion pedals but not in front of Wah or Fuzz pedals.

[dystrust]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

+1 on a buffer, but this sounds like an effects loop issue. In that case, I'd set the boost on top of the amp, and leave it on as the first pedal in the loop. That should solve the issues with a long cable run.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[d1dsj]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

I have heard great things about the M.I Audio boost n buff, I would think it goes in front. However, I run a CAE Line Driver/ Boost in the loop at the end of my chain but that's more for a solo boost.

[devastone]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

So, if I understand correctly, when you say "With that amp if I run a cable long enough to use my board on stage it kills the high end and sounds like you drop a blanket over the amp." you are talking about a cable from the effects loop to your pedalboard and back?

This statement is backwards "Seems Brucie assumed players would run a rack effects rig with these amps and set the loop level very low. I need to push the levels up to run a Digital verb delay ect in the loop using pedals." If the loop is designed to be run with rack effects, it will be line level which will too hot for a lot of pedals.

It honestly sounds like the loop is too hot and you have some instrument level only pedals in the loop, even if they are off, if they have buffers (Boss and Ibanez pedals) then they are clipping the signal which makes it sound muffled.

The solution is to run pedals that can handle hot signals in the loop, like the Digitech Hardwire pedals or most TC pedals. Or, get a line level shifter like the Ebtech LLS-2 to lower the level before it hits the pedals then raise it back before it goes back to the amp. I had to use one of these with my Randall RM50 head that had a really hot loop.

*EDIT* I haven't used a Zinky personally, but this is what it sounds like is going on to me, so take it for what it's worth. I know it is the opposite of what your original thought was on it, but it is something I have run into on a few amps.

[Ascension]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

To clarify things if I run a very short cable in and out on the board to the loop its fine but run the board with my time effect pedals in the loop and a set of cables long enough to get the board out enough ( on my Boogies it's a 10 ft run in and out) to use live my high end just dies and the rig sounds dead.
Was running a Hardwire Supernatural in that loop BTW. I run my Wah and compressor in the front but really need to be running my Digital verb,delay and Chorus /Flange in the loop to get the tones I need.

[devastone]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

That's kinda strange, so if I understand right, it sounds fine with the pedals and short cables, but muffled with the exact same pedals and longer cables? A 10ft cable run shouldn't affect the sound that much.

What pedals are you using in the loop? Have you tried them one at a time with the 10ft cables? Or different cables? Just trying to help troubleshoot...

[jeremy]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

10' isnt that long a cable, granted you are talking about 20' with two of them but still... are the effects buffered or true bypass? id make sure at least one pedal is buffered. if you are losing that much high end on a 10' cable going to the board then it sounds like something is wrong. if you like the amp that much, spend the $200 to get it modded

[Ascension]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

10' isnt that long a cable, granted you are talking about 20' with two of them but still... are the effects buffered or true bypass? id make sure at least one pedal is buffered. if you are losing that much high end on a 10' cable going to the board then it sounds like something is wrong. if you like the amp that much, spend the $200 to get it modded

First off had both buffered and true bypass in the chain at times and swapped a good bit. Yep on it being strange but saw the same thing on the Fender Prosonics Bruce did for them. Have been just running everything in the front on the Zinky but delay and verb just does not sound right before gain.
Since I am doing mostly modern Worship stuff I need to at times get those "ambient" heavy verb tap tempo delay tones so really need the loop to work.
My concern in sending it to Bruce is turn around time as he no longer does his own stuff but is the chief designer for Supro now. It was Bruce himself who suggested using a boost to bring the levels up.
Run a 3 ft loop cable to and from teh board it's fine run 15 ft and it looses the shimmer and sounds like you drop a blanket on the amp so--. Still this is the most expressive and dynamic high gain amp I have ever plugged into bar none so will keep it even if I have to run it dry.
This the 1/12 25 watt combo unmiced recorded off a camera mic in the HUGE lobby of a former hospital from the floor above for reference on what the amp is capable of. Only effects were wah chorus at times and a delay.

[devastone]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

Nice clip!

It's not whether the pedals are buffered or not, but what levels they are designed to work with. Boss single pedals are pretty much instrument level only and if you put them in a line level loop they distort the signal whether they are on or off. Digitech are much better, especially the Hardwire series, they are made to handle line level signals, I'm pretty sure the TC are too. That said, if Bruce said to use a boost, I've got nothing, I can't imagine why he would design a loop with that low of a level.

Back to your original question then, maybe put a buffer or booster on a really short cable at the loop send then run it to your pedalboard. You can probably get a buffer pretty cheap to try. Or, if you have a Boss pedal laying around, try just putting that in as a buffer, it will still buffer even when it's off. Maybe not a long term solution, but it might tell you if you need a buffer or booster. I would also try just putting a cable from the send to the return of the loop and see if that makes a difference, then put one pedal at a time in the loop so see if it is a specific pedal that is the biggest problem. Yeah, it's kind of a pain, but the best way to figure out what's going on before spending money on a buffer or booster than doesn't fix the problem.

[jeremy]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

i agree a buffer at the very beginning will help you get a good signal to the pedals but if you need more level youll probably want the boost after the pedals. you dont want to slam their input with a ton of signal, you want to bring the overall level up that is feeding back into the amp

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

The Dunlop HighGain volume pedal is designed to help with long cable runs, and may be a less expensive fix, though I agree that a 10 foot cable is not what I would consider "long".

Identify which end of the loop is having the problem: run short cable from the Send to the pedal board and the long cable from the board to the Return. If it sounds muffled, run the long cable from the Send to the pedalboard and the short cable to the return. If it still sounds muffled, and, as you say, using all short cables it sounds fine, you might then want to decide if the mod or the boost unit is the way to go, as they sound like they'll cost the same.

[Ascension]

Re: Where to run a boost in my chain?

An update on the situation.
Run the amp with nothing in the loop it screams drop my normal set up in the loop I run for my pair of boogies and the volume drops noticeably plus the high end is just gone. Run a very short cable it's better but still noticable lower and muddier'
Dropped a little Xotic EP in front of the 1st pedal running at 11 o clock or so and it made a huge difference. Got the volume back and the sparkle is almost the same on the high end as with nothing in the loop.
With this board it was send to the ep to a Rocktron Deep Blue Chorus into a Boss DD-7 into a Digitec Polara then back to the return.
Sounds fantastic now!!